Romankov or Cassara

[drippingwet]

The 'Romankov march' (the stuttering clown thing) was very different from the usual march, where the blade shifts around, extending towards one line, then resetting, and extending towards another until the opponent is sufficiently opened up for a real attack. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the great strength of the clown march is the constant direct extension and resetting with every advance, which prevents blind attacks on preparation, and blinds the opponent to the true threat, so that he can't react in time. The latter statement (masking of attack) is also true for the other, more usual march, but not the former statement (preventing AIP). And although, due perhaps to the benefit of the doubt being given by the ref, and a potential ability to see when the opponent is about to attack into preparation, the 'more usual march' is very effective, it's still vulnerable against a good anti-march fencer - Wessels v Cassara (2003 Shanghai Grand Prix). A well timed fleche by Wessels was all that was needed. You could not just do these surprise tactics against a clown marcher, because you would impale yourself due to the marcher's extension with each advance.

So it's a case of opening up the opponent with the ordinary march and the obvious advantage of that, against the protected preparations of the Romankov march, while both offer masking of the attack.

The ways of dealing with the Romankov march would be the same as with the normal march, but without the option of attacks on prep.

Imagine if this Romankov march was combined with the sort of tempo breaking preparations that the Italians are using. This would combine supreme masking of the attack, with protected preparations by way of broken tempo and constant extension, and suprise gain in distance also by way of broken tempo.

Opinions?

[noodle]

you're forgetting one key element:
the italian march is effective because of the absence of blade. you don't know when they're going to hit and can't parry it until POW, its right there on you. they're stoppable with a properly timed attack-in-prep but can't be parry/riposted.
romankov march, though also very effective, is stoppable with a properly timed parry/riposte because of the constant extensions but is tough to catch in preparation.

the italian game and the romankov extensions are two different sets of tempo. if romankov allowed for a range of tempo. people would be able to eat up the slower extensions and spit it back at him. it was effective because it was quick and confusing (i think, its been a while since i've seen it).

[drippingwet]

You can still have different levels of high speed: fast, very fast, bolt of lightning.

Anyway, what I'm thinking at the moment, is unless you have some very good march training, it's risky. It's risky for the Italian hotshots, so its definately risky for me. Besides, with the new rules, I'm not sure flicky threats will carry the same weight, and therefore the march may drastically differ to more along the lines of Romankov's - even horizontal flicks to the chest may prove a bit trickier due to the non-sticking factor. So all these wavy threats might start to fade away. Here's my approach at the moment:

Use slow, invitational preparations to ease the opponent into retreating. Then start the tempo change: moderate, fast and very fast preparations with the Romankov stuff. All mixed in with pauses, stop-shorts, appels, changing length. All at the right time of course - you don't want to totally blow their minds all the time or they'll get use to it - It's a bit like antibiotics! In other words, what someone else said -use "long stretches of cautious predictability to condition them to a pattern and to lull them. Then you can break the pattern suddenly and unexpectedly, or sneak into distance unnoticed." If the opponent finds the blade, either counter-riposte or start retreating and take over RoW yourself.

After the intial slow stuff, I would stick to faster but still varying tempo - i.e. dont give them time to think by using slow stuff.

Any opinions on this approach?

[ReverseLunge]

I can imagine Romankov doing his stuttering clown attack on your a$$ with his hands on your shoulders while Cassara charges you with his absense of rod attack until it reaches the end of your throat.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

You can still have different levels of high speed: fast, very fast, bolt of lightning.

Anyway, what I'm thinking at the moment, is unless you have some very good march training, it's risky. It's risky for the Italian hotshots, so its definately risky for me. Besides, with the new rules, I'm not sure flicky threats will carry the same weight, and therefore the march may drastically differ to more along the lines of Romankov's - even horizontal flicks to the chest may prove a bit trickier due to the non-sticking factor. So all these wavy threats might start to fade away. Here's my approach at the moment:

Use slow, invitational preparations to ease the opponent into retreating. Then start the tempo change: moderate, fast and very fast preparations with the Romankov stuff. All mixed in with pauses, stop-shorts, appels, changing length. All at the right time of course - you don't want to totally blow their minds all the time or they'll get use to it - It's a bit like antibiotics! In other words, what someone else said -use "long stretches of cautious predictability to condition them to a pattern and to lull them. Then you can break the pattern suddenly and unexpectedly, or sneak into distance unnoticed." If the opponent finds the blade, either counter-riposte or start retreating and take over RoW yourself.

After the intial slow stuff, I would stick to faster but still varying tempo - i.e. dont give them time to think by using slow stuff.

Any opinions on this approach?

From your questions I can't really tell if you are a rank beginner or someone who has some good fencing experience under their belt and is on the cusp of advancing to the next level. Without that, I can't give any advice on what you should or should not do.

I would counsel you to focus on the basics and master the basics first. Talking about emulating Romankov and Cassara and understanding the hows and, more importantly, the whys of what they do is very advanced stuff and you need to have already developed a good sense of timing and distance to be able to incorporate those tactics into your game.

Craig

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Craig

From your questions I can't really tell if you are a rank beginner or someone who has some good fencing experience under their belt and is on the cusp of advancing to the next level. Without that, I can't give any advice on what you should or should not do.

I would counsel you to focus on the basics and master the basics first. Talking about emulating Romankov and Cassara and understanding the hows and, more importantly, the whys of what they do is very advanced stuff and you need to have already developed a good sense of timing and distance to be able to incorporate those tactics into your game.

Craig

this is exactly what i was about to say but i saw craig posted it before i did.

imho, you're probably getting ideas too big for your knickers. cassara and romankov didn't win because of their marching strategies. they won because they were (are) frickin good, to boot. their marching strategies flowed from this. take away romankov and cassara's marches and they're still both kickass, no matter how you look at it. you're not going to get on the strip and think to yourself "this opponent looks difficult! it is now time to execute my secret weapon: the super mega ultra cassara-romankov march of doom 20x6". when the time comes, you can experiment with both types and incorporating the two in methods that work. on strip. talking about the theorey of it on the net with us just isn't the same. the proof is in the pudding, as they say. if you feel you're an experienced fencer and know how to execute the romankov and cassara phrases, experiment, test and play. its the only way you're going to find whats best.

[Gruntled]

****I'm making a statement about drippingwets posting frequency and how he is annoying........ limit yourself boy!"***