Certified instructors among us

[Mergs]

I joined USFCA back in the early 90's about the time I started going to Coaches College. Didn't see much value added (aside from the newsletter, which was pretty miserable). Still don't. Smacks too much of Evangelista and his ilk with the terminology, etc. Why not go with Instructor, Coach and Master? Someone please enlighten me.

[Allen Evans]

Mergs:

The names of the diplomas awarded by the USFCA were changed a few years ago to comply with AAI (the international governing body of professional fencing coaches) designations for those levels.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

Mergs:

The names of the diplomas awarded by the USFCA were changed a few years ago to comply with AAI (the international governing body of professional fencing coaches) designations for those levels.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

Thanks Allen. Hope all is well in your corner of the world.

[Victor]

the USFCA certifications are recognized by the AAI; does the coaching number system via USFA get the same worldwide recognition?

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Victor

As fair and balanced as that sounds, I ... well, to be blunt, I don't really care about those other coaching certifications. Or at least in this particular thread.

I'm not trying to be rude, because, yeah, all that other stuff is good. Kudos to all of you. But I only wanted some USFCA member numbers from this board. A pretty focused question.

((Like asking about saber parries specifically, and someone replies, "You should have offered an epee option as well." Maybe next time.))

Yes, kudos to all of me. But there's a problem here. I click on the thread (labelled "Certified instructors among us") and see the following on my screen:

A poll!
Title: "Your status"
Options: Prevot, Moniteur or Maestro

Your instructions (for USFCA certified coaches only) don't appear on the screen until I scroll down. Without mention of the USFCA in the titles or options, or including an option for non-USFCA coaches specifically to select, I suspect that more than a few people are responding to the poll before reading the post. Hence, inaccurate data.

If you really want to know how many here are USFCA members, and at what level, you should allow options for the non-USFCA people to choose ("None" or "Certified, but not by the USFCA"), thereby giving those people an option which better suits them than those responses that you're interested in. Otherwise some people will choose whatever category best fits them, even if they shouldn't be participating in the poll.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by kalivor

whine whine whine ...

"Check the appropriate choice above if you're a certified coach in the USFCA."

Read more.

[Allen Evans]

Victor:

The USFA certification of coaches was put into place because of a request from the USOC that each National Governing Body have a sport specific training program for its coaches, internal to the NGB in question. I believe (but do not know for a fact) that the USFA followed a USOC- recommended structuring plan to set up the five levels.

The USFCA is chartered by the AAI to provide a certification to US coaches that is recognized throughout the world. Earning a diploma in the USFCA also earns the equivelent diploma in the AAI.

The USFA designations are internal to the USFA and have no worldwide standing.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

[pjsise1]

Why is there no reciprocity between the USFA and USFCA? There are three answers really. 1) The structure is different. Perhaps some similarity can be drawn between a level 5 USFA coach and a Master, but you can you can be a level 5 in foil and only a level 2 in epee and saber, whereas Master must be all three weapons. Also, what would the number level coresponding to Prevot and Moniteur be? 2) The exams are different. The practicals are much shorter and the classes and exams can be given by people who are not certified Masters (though some are of course). 3) Only one organization per nation can be a member of the AAI. Only 1 organization can give you Moniteur, Prevot, and Master titles. For the United States, that's the USFCA. If there were reciprocity, then essentially you'd have 2 organizations doing that.

There's nothing wrong with taking part in Coaches College and the USFCA. I've learned a lot by participating in both organizations.

Yes, the USFCA has had its share of problems, but the organization is changing and growing. It really isn't a bunch of 80 year old masters complaining and wishing for the good old days to return. We even have a website with an option to join online now. Part of the issue is it is an organization where you get what you want out of it. I attend conferences, am active on the email discussion group, and enjoy the (much improved) Swordmaster. If you expect to have Universities pound on your door offering you lucritive jobs because you are a USFCA member then you need to readjust your expectations, but for $35 or $50 a year I think it can be worthwhile. You just have to make use of what it offers.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Victor

It's a good question.

You'd think that the USFA's focus would be the oversight of fencing events and the related details (funding, fencer ratings, equipment standards, etc.). The education/coaching of those fencers via coaches should fall under a different organization, or a clearly defined arm of the main organization. Ref training would seem to fall more under the USFA's purview as part of the competition event quality aspect.

Others will doubtless disagree for their own reasons. Regardless, the structure should be clarified one way or the other.

The USFA's focus includes improving the standard of fencing in the country. One of the ways of doing that is to improve the number and quality of the coaches. Coaches College is how the USFA does so (one of the ways, and the most direct). Why should the USFA leave an important task like that to another organization, especially one which appears primarily to be concerned with certification rather than training?

I am a former member of the USFCA, and I intend at some point to rejoin and work my way through the certification process. From my experience the USFCA does not have much to offer other than the certifications. There are USFCA clinics, especially the set run down in Texas, that I would love to go to if they were closer. If a similar set of clinics were run in the Northeast I would never have let my membership lapse, but for most of the country the USFCA doesn't really do anything. Meanwhile I attend Coaches College for two sessions each summer. Yes, it's still not local, but for a single flight I get two and half weeks of instruction at a level and of a quality that I am very happy with rather than two days if I were to try the PAFA clinics.

As another side note, one of the other reasons why the USFCA likes the french terminology is that it separates certified members from non-certified members. Lots of people refer to themselves as a "coach" or a "fencing coach." The USFCA doesn't want a confusable certification, hence something like "Prevot."

Originally Posted by Mergs

I asked about reciprocity between the USFCA and USFA, to which the answer was, there is none. Still don't have a good reason as to why not. Seems to me that if the national governing body of our sport is teaching how to be coaches, then why can't USFCA accept that?

There used to be, there is no longer. As an interesting note, the US is not unique. The BFA and BAF (British Fencing Association (NGB) and British Academy of Fencing (AAI authorized body)) similarly both run training and certification programs that are not reciprical.

I have to agree with Sabreur. While I'm sure the USFCA can cite all kinds of claims of demanding control over stricter testing and wanting to make sure that their certifications continue to hold coaches to higher standards, I believe that the true reason is MUCH closer to "because it would diminish the perceived importance and power of the USFCA?"

Reading through what I've written I come across as fairly negative to the USFCA. I'm really not. As mentioned above, I am a former and (intended) future member. For now I don't see enough value for the $35 annual fee ($50 once one has a certification).

-B :)
USFA certified level 3 foil and epee, level 2 sabre

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by pjsise1

Why is there no reciprocity between the USFA and USFCA? There are three answers really. 1) The structure is different. Perhaps some similarity can be drawn between a level 5 USFA coach and a Master, but you can you can be a level 5 in foil and only a level 2 in epee and saber, whereas Master must be all three weapons. Also, what would the number level coresponding to Prevot and Moniteur be?

Just for reference, the BAF (Britain's USFCA equivalent and a member of the AAI) offers single-weapon Master's certification. Certification as a "Master" in all three weapons makes one a "Professor." Either the three-weapon thing isn't an AAI requirement or the BAF isn't in compliance.

-B :)

[oso97]

USFCA-certified Moniteur, in all three weapons. Hope to be Prevost by the end of the season.

And yes, the clinics offered down here in Texas (and Oklahoma) are fantastic. I would love to attend USFA Coaches College, but getting another couple of weeks off from work during the summer (in addition to Summer Nats) is problematic. The training format the USFCA offers is something that suits my schedule much better. I can't speak to the exam format for Coaches College, but the Moniteur-level exam, while not too difficult, was indeed challenging enough to make me proud of my certification.

With regards to the compliance of the USFCA with the AAI guidelines, vis-a-vis the structure in Britian, which has the title of "Professor" for a three weapon Master, there is in addition, an AAI certification of "Animoniteur" (that may be spelled incorrectly) that the USFAC does not use. Its a level below Moniteur, and if I remember correctly, roughly equivalent to level 1 from USFA Coach's College.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Victor

"Check the appropriate choice above if you're a certified coach in the USFCA."

Read more.

Love the personal attack! Thanks!

I was just pointing out that the "USFCA" thing wasn't in the poll proper, but in the post, which isn't immediately visible (ie, requires scrolling) when I clicked on the link to this post (screen resolution 1024x768). A clearer poll would give clearer results, and since you're so concerned about being specific to the USFCA, I thought I might make the suggestion.

Glad to see you respond so kindly to criticism!

[Victor]

Originally Posted by kalivor

Love the personal attack! Thanks!

I was just pointing out that the "USFCA" thing wasn't in the poll proper, but in the post, which isn't immediately visible (ie, requires scrolling) when I clicked on the link to this post (screen resolution 1024x768). A clearer poll would give clearer results, and since you're so concerned about being specific to the USFCA, I thought I might make the suggestion.

Glad to see you respond so kindly to criticism!

You're welcome!

Likewise, I wasn't "attacking" you, per se, but rather offering my own criticism that perhaps you should read the message before answering a poll.

Glad to see you ... Ahhhh, nevermind.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Victor

You're welcome!

Likewise, I wasn't "attacking" you, per se, but rather offering my own criticism that perhaps you should read the message before answering a poll.

Glad to see you ... Ahhhh, nevermind.

Don't worry, I didn't answer your poll! No misinformation being offered by this foreigner. I'm just attempting to point out that many people probably do not read the post first, but instead answer the poll, then move on to the post -- the poll is, after all, at the top.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by kalivor

(says stuff)

Your reasonable demeanor has ... has ... it's thrown me off my game. I don't know ... how to ...

React?

Darn you! Darn you all to heck! I have been defanged in mid-facetiousness!

[Inquartata]

Would it help if I were to pop in and make a snarky remark? You know, just to let you regain your equilibrium?