'Distance parrying'

[drippingwet]

1. If you avoid an opponent's lunge by using distance, and then lunge or advance-lunge yourself, do you have RoW if the opponent keeps his arm straight, or do you first have to beat?

2. If you do have RoW in this case, how often is it recognised in competition?

3. How often does this happen?

4. And if you do have RoW in this case, wouldn't it be better to always retreat and then take over RoW, instead of bothering with parries?

Thanks.

[achilleus]

There are several threads on this already, you may want to check them out. They are lengthy, and it can be a heavily disputed subject.

Also, I believe Bill Oliver wrote an article on it under the 'Ask the Expert' heading on this site.

I'll answer with the current conventions as they are applied, but that may change with the new timings.

Originally Posted by drippingwet

1. If you avoid an opponent's lunge by using distance, and then lunge or advance-lunge yourself, do you have RoW if the opponent keeps his arm straight, or do you first have to beat?

If the lunge or adv-lunge is immediate, then it is considered a new attack or counterattack. Depends on the timing.

If there is a pause, then it is considered that the point is in line.

Originally Posted by drippingwet

2. If you do have RoW in this case, how often is it recognised in competition?

By competent, current refs in the US? Often. But it varies by country as well. The Italians want the line to be given priority, the Germans want the 'distance parry' given. The FIE has yet to give an official ruling.

Till they do, you have to try it and find out what kind of a ref you got.

Originally Posted by drippingwet

3. How often does this happen?

Often. Today's game is all distance.

Originally Posted by drippingwet

4. And if you do have RoW in this case, wouldn't it be better to always retreat and then take over RoW, instead of bothering with parries?

Buckie Leach built his fencers on this premise. The Europeans have already developed counters. Again there are very, very few 'always better' in fencing.

[edew]

1. If you begin your attack prior to your opponent establishing a point in line, then you will have priority.

2. Virtually any rated referee will be able to see this call. Some novice (part-time, eg) referees or fencer/referees might not see it and call it as simultaneous (which should never be the case: it's either opponent's attack is NO, your attack is YES, your opponent's remise is LATE, or your opponent's attack is NO, your opponent's remise (or point in line) is in time, and your attack is LATE). If there's a big tempo break before the final action, it might be possible to then call it simultaneous, as the final actions are not done within the phrase of the above failed attack.

3. This particular action occurs quite often, especially at the higher level of fencing. And quite often in saber.

4. The reward for retreating to gain right of way is that you do not subject yourself to the possibility of failing to successfully parry (which is more prevalent in saber, so that's why saber fencers use "distance parry" more often than foil fencers), the risk is that you're farther away from your opponent, so you have to work harder to reach your opponent. Also, there's more leg work involved, so one can get quite tired. The typical footwork is to perform a fast retreat at the moment of the opponent's attack, then start one's own attack slowly leading up to a very fast acceleration. Careless actions may include not retreating fully or fast enough, and advancing too quickly after making the opponent's attack fall short. A quick advance might accidentally walk right into the remise (and at the same time, cause one's own attack to fail to hit, thus making the RoW issue irrelevant). In saber, a quick advance might catch you advancing with preparation: your arm is not extending, blade not moving towards opponent.

To parry means that your opponent could potentially reach you, which means you should be able to reach your opponent by extension (or extension plus small advance/lunge). A fast parry-riposte is almost impossible in that case for your opponent to defend. This is especially so in saber. Generally, I tell my saber fencers that if you got parried like that, give up and start walking back to the on guard line. No point making any extra effort for naught.

The reward for parrying is an almost assured hit. The risk is that a successful disengage will hit you.

[Inquartata]

I was going to chime in about sabre, but Eric's summarized it pretty well. I'll only add that all of this may change with the new box timings.

[oso97]

Okay, heres a thought to ponder about distance parries. Anyone have any good methods they've used to teach how to recognize them, both from the aspect of the referee and the aspect of the fencer trying to perform one. With respect to Sabre, that is.

I myself am very confident in calling a "distance parry" as a referee, and on the occation when my bad knee will let me do one, confident in pulling it out when fencing.

One thing I was exposed to at a coaching seminar was using it as part of the simultanious game, e.g. simultanious with preparation, advance-lunge, then do the same with tiny footwork. However, what about when you're already going backward?

Put it another way, when is it retreating from the opponents attack and when is it opening distance enough to get the priority? Again, I can referee this, but when I try to think about it, I realize its very much a "gut decision" and I have a hard time qualtifiying the exact factors that I would use. I realize the simplistic answer is "its the distance between the two fencers" but does anyone have a better way of explaining it, in words that I could repeat to a 12 or 13 year old and have them have some idea of it? Or perhaps a paired drill that could be used to show them?

[pkt]

Originally Posted by oso97

Okay, heres a thought to ponder about distance parries. Anyone have any good methods they've used to teach how to recognize them, both from the aspect of the referee and the aspect of the fencer trying to perform one. With respect to Sabre, that is.?

Simply keep a distance where one's opponent's attack falls short, but not long enough so that one's counter-attack [it's never a riposte if there is no contact of blades] with step-lunge or balestre-lunge will not reach.

Originally Posted by oso97

Put it another way, when is it retreating from the opponents attack and when is it opening distance enough to get the priority? Again, I can referee this, but when I try to think about it, I realize its very much a "gut decision" and I have a hard time qualtifiying the exact factors that I would use. I realize the simplistic answer is "its the distance between the two fencers" but does anyone have a better way of explaining it, in words that I could repeat to a 12 or 13 year old and have them have some idea of it? Or perhaps a paired drill that could be used to show them?

"Attack does not land.
Counter-attack lands."
What more do you need to say?

Put it another way:
"When the opponent attacks, at the last moment, you step back so the attack falls short and does not land.
"Then you cut your opponent."

That's the easy part. Getting the timing right is the difficult part. Go ask Tan Xue.

PK

[noodle]

teaching them - soviet foil drills work well enough, imho: http://www.fencing101.com/content/view/55/43/ i've also used versions that involve both sides holding their gloves in their hand and making it a tag sort of game, and versions where the footwork of the attacker is limited (2 advances and lunge, max) so they have to make sure they do quick footwork and keep tight distance.

reffing them - think of ROW as turn based. you lose it (by being parried, by missing, by breaking line, etc) and your opponent now has a turn to go. if they don't act immediately on their turn to go, you can go again. if your attack falls short because of a 'distance parry', your opponent now has an immediate chance to go and take ROW. if they do, you need to deal with it. if they don't, you can then subsequently have line established or otherwise take ROW again.