The secret to point-in-line on preparation

[drippingwet]

Well, what is it? And isn't it safer than attack on preparation?

Thanks.

[cowpaste]

Impossible. I never in my life had a PIL called in my favored when my opponent was preparing towards me. The only "secret" is to make the action one light.

[drippingwet]

I meant what's the secret to a surprise PIL against the opponent's preps.

[Grasshopper]

This is a point in line put out at the moment just before your opponent starts a compound attack (multiple tempo attack). Since it takes a lot of concentration to make a good attack, your opponent will sometimes "forget" to look at what you are doing with your hand. If you can put out a point of line at the moment before he starts his attack, he may kindly run onto your point with a bewildered look on his face.

Note: this is a risky move, in the sense that many refs will call the phrase attack counter attack, even if the line was out a bit before the attack starts.

For reference, watch videos of Andrea Borella from ITA or Sergei Goloubitski UKR.

[drippingwet]

Thanks. I think I'll make RoW domination my game from now on. Attack/PIL on prep seems too risky. So does waiting for the attack and throwing out a parry.

[noodle]

as grasshopper said, it is possible but difficult to time correctly. you have to have had the line established for one tempo for it to be valid. pil/attack-in-prep isn't really a good "game" per se, but don't ignore the skills in favor of others; you'll benefit from knowing how to execute them well. and besides, the general game is to feint an attack into preparation to get the attacker to finish the attack, then you parry/riposte.

[drippingwet]

Very useful. Any particular tricks to doing this?

[wflaschka]

The PiL is difficult because you want it to be obvious to the director, obvious in the action, but not obvious to the opponent.

Don't create a line when there's no action (that is, when your opponent is just standing around). The opponent will see it, and then the line's value as a scoring tactic is gone. The opponent must be coming forward, and they must see it -- but see it too late. When they see it, they will react to it, which "confirms" the line in the director's mind. But they must react to it too late -- so they can't make much more than a token swipe before they impale. Usually this means, create the line while your opponent still has one step before they can lunge and finish their attack. YMMV.

You can also create a "throwaway" line, which is merely to keep the opponent away, or make them stop their attack. These aren't lines that you necessarily expect to hit with, so you create them and give them up quickly. They function like laser-pointers -- to annoy.

You'll see many fencers put out a line with the arm straight, which means the shoulder is bunched. Their lines are so tight you could pluck their arms and tune your guitar. They frequently end up entangled in their opponent's blade. It's the wrong approach. The goal is relaxation, and zen.

If you want to make a useable line, don't straighten the arm completely. The arm's extension during a line looks very different from a normal extension. The thumb is on top of course, but the hand is cocked at the wrist with the fingers angled down, and the hand is level with your shoulder -- as if you're going to shake the hand of a very tall person. This configuration does several things: (1) You can make point derobements easily, (2) the unfixed-wrist position reminds you that you can't do much else with your arm, so better keep the line.

Bent arms can't be used in lines, but keep it bent 10% anyway. The arm is inside the jacket, and will look straight enough. If you were to really straighten your arm, then your derobements would invariably try to include the whole arm anyway. I've seen fencers use lines, and avoid the blade by moving the whole rigid arm around -- those lines are ignored by the director. If you put your arm out (a little bent), and it is rock solid through the whole action with just the fingers working -- directors love those.

In short, the arm position you're using for the line is one that is optimized to derobe, but not much else. In this position, you can make short, decisive point movements using twitch muscles, and easily deceive the blade 1 or 2 times. If you need 3 or more deceptions, you may consider getting the heck out of there, unless you're looking for a pretty touch. As soon as the opponent sees a line as a line, the line is more of a threat to you than the opponent.

[Neil]

Another use for a PiL is to get your opponent in a mindset which you can exploit.

Put out a line, and make sure the distance is close enough that your opponent feels like they have to deal with it. While they're thinking about how they're going to take your blade and attack, you attack. If you pick the right time, they're not thinking about defending, so they'll do their favourite reflex-parry which you can disengage or coupe around.

Another way to exploit your opponent's "I must take the blade and attack" mindset is to let them beat your line and attack, then parry riposte.

The trick to this is realising when your opponent is in the "I must take the blade and attack" mindset. The longer you leave the line out, the more time your opponent has to think about possibilities, so in practice it's not useful to maintain the line for more than a few seconds. If the opponent opens up distance and ignores your line, they'll never be in that mindset.

[SwordSoul]

i have that fencing foil actions cd-rom thingy, and I like what the author had to say: the PIL doesn't create points in and of itself, rather, it creates situations. To me, the PIL is almost like a dare lol. I agree with the mindset comment, it can be a good way to break the rythm or tempo of the overall bout. Even if you stick to your guns for just one PIL, whether you scored the point, was scored on, or off target, etc... you've told your opponent that your PIL means something, so he better at least respect it.

$0.02.

[Purple Fencer]

PIL is very difficult until you work at it.

For me -- when using it in sabre -- it's primarily a bait & switch tactic. On the command to fence I immedately jump back and extend the line...this breaks the distance and establishes the line if it's done before my opponent starts moving forward. It can also be done after an action where there's been no touch....you just run back a few steps.

The line's out. I may try and disengage arount the attempt to parry the line -- particularly if my opponent's a new fencer -- but more likely I'm waiting for them to take the beat and then parry their ensuing attack.

[mackillian]

I've found that if someone is chasing you down the strip, a PIL stops them dead, at least for a momentary change in tempo. Breathing room, if you will.

[achilleus]

Good technique
Good timing
Good official

[S. Hunter]

Good technique
Good timing
Good official

Surprising that the last of that set is the hardest to pull off. :-D

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Good technique
Good timing
Good official

Definitely correct. You need a referee who will acknowledge that you have a point-in line while out of distance, and then you need to have an opponent that recognizes this and attempts to beat your blade, and then most importantly, you have to have the good timing and techinique (fingerplay) to avoid the opponent's attempt to take.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

If you want to make a useable line, don't straighten the arm completely. The arm's extension during a line looks very different from a normal extension. The thumb is on top of course, but the hand is cocked at the wrist with the fingers angled down, and the hand is level with your shoulder -- as if you're going to shake the hand of a very tall person. This configuration does several things: (1) You can make point derobements easily, (2) the unfixed-wrist position reminds you that you can't do much else with your arm, so better keep the line.

Bent arms can't be used in lines, but keep it bent 10% anyway. The arm is inside the jacket, and will look straight enough.

One caveat:this will not serve you in sabre. There the PIL MUST be straight from the shoulder...

[davtsung]

The most consistently succesful time for me to PIL is the VERY FIRST attack the opponent tries. Never had a problem getting PIL called for me so long as the movement is apparent and not just a reflexive jerk. Golubitsky, I forgot in which DVD, did a PIL against I think Shevchenko simply by stopping his retreat admist a pacey march. IMHO, the most important aspect is to impliment PIL when you're opponent is not expecting it, such as when the go crazy and want to get you no matter what.

[edew]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Thanks. I think I'll make RoW domination my game from now on. Attack/PIL on prep seems too risky. So does waiting for the attack and throwing out a parry.

Dominating and controlling RoW is the name of the game for both foil and saber. Hitting the opponent is merely a way to punish the opponent for not playing the game your way. As long as you control the right of way, your opponent must defer to your presence. If he refuses and chooses to do the wrong thing, you must punish him by hitting him.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by edew

Dominating and controlling RoW is the name of the game for both foil and saber. Hitting the opponent is merely a way to punish the opponent for not playing the game your way. As long as you control the right of way, your opponent must defer to your presence. If he refuses and chooses to do the wrong thing, you must punish him by hitting him.

Good analogy! I like the idea of punishing my opponent for not obeying me.

[prototoast]

The key to putting out point in line is to put it out when it will draw a predictable response from your opponent.