The secret to point-in-line on preparation

[mrbiggs]

It's very important to know your ref, especially at local tournaments.

One time, at "fence", I extended (with PIL) and my opponent advanced at the same time. He made no move toward my blade, and we hit at the same time. It was called his attack. He kinda laughed and gestured at me with his teammates.

But I won the bout, so it was OK.

Often what I do is, especially in pool bouts, if I know I'm going to be using point in line alot, I do one at the beginning of the set of bouts against someone who I can beat pretty easily. I pay attention to the call, and remove it from my game entirely, if necessary. (It usually is).

[Craig]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

One time, at "fence", I extended (with PIL) and my opponent advanced at the same time. He made no move toward my blade, and we hit at the same time. It was called his attack. He kinda laughed and gestured at me with his teammates.

Based on your description, that was the correct call. If it was at the command "fence" and at the same time you extend and your opponent attacks, then PIL is not established before the attack, so point to the attacker.

Craig

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Craig

Based on your description, that was the correct call. If it was at the command "fence" and at the same time you extend and your opponent attacks, then PIL is not established before the attack, so point to the attacker.

Craig

Oh.

I was always taught that if PIL is established at the same time as the advance starts, then the action is considered simulataneous.

Interesting to note that the USFA rules don't specify what happens in that situation; only stating the call when the fencer "is" or "is not" "Point in line".

[noodle]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Oh.

I was always taught that if PIL is established at the same time as the advance starts, then the action is considered simulataneous.

Interesting to note that the USFA rules don't specify what happens in that situation; only stating the call when the fencer "is" or "is not" "Point in line".

not true. it requires one full fencing tempo between the initiation and the establishment of a point in line. if he started his advance and you started PIL, it will take him one fencing tempo to finish his advance lunge. his attack ends at the end of the tempo, your PIL will gain priority at the start of the next tempo, if you didn't get hit.

hope that makes sense, its a bit hazy and toughish to explain.

[mrbiggs]

I understand, I just thought I understood before.

[Purple Fencer]

And that is EXACTLY why I break the distance when I do a PIL...see my post above. if you break the distance sufficiently and get the point out, PIL is yours, even if the other guy's coming forward. A couple of steps is sufficienht, particularly if he;s not moving.

[cowpaste]

No, it is not yours. The ref usually gives ROW to the person charging ahead no matter how much distance you break. I really wish PIL could be used to consistently stop marching attacks, but based on the current refing trend, that just doesn't happen. No, it doesn't matter what the rules say. Refs are the ones that award points.

[sabreur]

Caveat: this applies to sabre.

I use PIL quite a bit, primarily right at the command "fence," as Purple Fencer describes. Once the fencers are in motion, it is very difficult to break distance to the degree you need (get outside of advance-lunge distance) to have the line recognized. Even if you think you are breaking distance, your opponent will be in full pursuit and most referees will not recognize the PIL.

It helps to take lessons from a foil coach on the use of PIL--they are much more focused on disengages with the point, and can really help you learn to deceive attempts to take the blade.

MR

[Grasshopper]

Basically, you need to get the attention of the ref when do PIL. If you only extend your arm from en gaurd to PIL, the ref will sometimes miss it, regardless of the time.

The way Borella did PIL was to totally drop his foil down to the ground, out of reach and just bounce around waiting for his opponent. His opponent would see this as a good chance to make an attack and start making prep. The moment before the opponent started his attack, BOOM, up comes the foil from the ground to PIL, very obvious to the ref.

The opponent would see the PIL and often panic because HE knows it was obvious to the ref, resulting in many one-light hits for Borella.

Another way to make your PIL more believable to the ref is by keeping your arm extended well after the PIL hits. Many fencers feel the hit and withdraw the arm to prevent the blade from breaking. Instead, let the tip slip off your opponents jacket after the hit, but don't withdraw. An extended arm after the hit will "look" like a confident PIL.

[Schiavona]

Very good Grasshopper! The human eye is drawn to movement, which is one of the reasons advancing fencers are often given the attack wrongly(in my opinion). Also, as all of us who started in dry tournaments know, follow through is VERY important!

[JackSparrow]

Originally Posted by drippingwet

Thanks. I think I'll make RoW domination my game from now on.

In that case you want to watch as many Sanzo matches as you can get hold of. He is truly the master when it comes to dominating right of way.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by cowpaste

No, it is not yours. The ref usually gives ROW to the person charging ahead no matter how much distance you break.

Sure it is...say we're in the middle of an action and my opponent makes an attack...I run back 4 or 5 steps and he does nothing...I extend and hold the line...it's mine all day long until 1) he parries my blade, 2) I withdraw my arm or otherwise break the line, 3) I make a successful disengage BUT take my point off a-line (down to the knees, for example), although I'm a little iffy on that one, or 4) I make a disengage action and my opponent is NOT making an attempt to find my blade when I do so.

If I'm 10-20 feet away and have the line out, how is it not mine?? My opponent would be advancing onto an established threat. Sucks to be him...

[Craig]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Interesting to note that the USFA rules don't specify what happens in that situation; only stating the call when the fencer "is" or "is not" "Point in line".

Exactly. Point is Line is not an action, it is a state. You are either in line or you are not. If you are 'in line' before the attack starts, then PIL has priority. If you are not already 'in line' before the attack starts, then it's a counter-attack or PIL late.


Craig

[Inquartata]

Or a point attack. It gets called simultaneous a lot in sabre. You aren't established, but your arm IS extending continuously and threatening valid target. So unless you are discernibly late beginning the extension it's still an attack.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Or a point attack. It gets called simultaneous a lot in sabre. You aren't established, but your arm IS extending continuously and threatening valid target. So unless you are discernibly late beginning the extension it's still an attack.

Yes, but unfortunately, I've encountered far too many people who can't distinguish between a point in line and an attack with point in sabre.

[Inquartata]

Oh, well. It'll probably all be "resolved" by the new timing. One light makes it easy to call...

[edew]

I've been using the new timings at my club for the past several days. It doesn't appear to make too many one-lighters. One can still discern which side's light turns on first. The instances when there's only one light seem to occur when it probably would have been one light anyway with the old timing. On occasions, we get some weird one-lighters. Probably some accidental grounding.