Virtual reality fencing training program.

[drippingwet]

Anyone got any ideas to make this possible. Imagine the progress that could be made. Imagine if you could practice footwork with a virtual opponent, trying to catch him with tempo. Admittedly bladework might be a little more difficult, but perhaps not impossible - robotic gloves to snap you're hand back when a camera relays information that you're attack would have been parried, etc. This could be the biggest thing since the invention of the mask. The perfection of a discipline that would have previously taken decades of sparring, competition and access to high level coaching, might be achieved in only a few years. This could be done in you're back yard - being conditioned and trained every day by a computer programme with all of the tactical intelligence and experience of the world's best coaches - if you could get them to part with their knowledge/living! Then, perhaps fencing would be taken to a completely different level, with fencers competing in a lightning fast exchange of absolute, unimaginable skill and experience. Isn't there any money floating about in the fencing world that could be better spent?

Just a thought!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

it would ruin the sport.

[gladius]

Virtual fencing? What about virtual lovemaking? Think about all the advantages: always available, no headache to contend with, no exposure to STD, you go as far as you want without hurting or hurting anybody, no courtship if you are not inclined, lengthy and elaborate phrasing if you are so inclined, practice, practice, practice as much as you need or want, no criticism, no complaints, and so much cheaper...

But, BORING AND NO FUN! Never confuse the goal and the desire to achieve it with the process of achieving it.

And yes, it would not generate results worth bragging about to the future generations.

[Morion]

While it is possible to use virtual trainers for operating equipment of various types, I just can't see that it would work for physical training such as footwork. We just don't have "holodeck" technology yet were you can interact to the degree necessary with the virtual world.

[Cavatione]

Is it so hard to look for a human sparring partner?

Human touch is a basic in many aspect of life...

[Larrison]

I gave some thought to this, and I think it's *maybe* doable with current technology, but really really expensive.

To do it right, you'd want a full immersion, wrap-around environment. To display this, you'd need a head mounted display. For good quality displays of this size (which I've seen in some very high end military simulators) figure $10K for the head mounted display. I'm assuming this will replace your mask, and probably have to be wireless to boot (something I've not yet seen).

You'd also need to put sensors on *you*. These sensors are needed to provide very good precision (I'd say 1.0 mm or so) on where your body and limbs are, plus your weapon. A minimum of a dozen sensors I'd say. To read them to that precision in real time is non trival -- and you're going to be reading them along the equivalent length of a strip. Again, probably doable -- I don't know anything off the shelf that would do this, but I can think of a coupe of ways you might do this, probably involving a full body suit with embedded sensors at key points. Not trival, but possible. Pick a number for cost -- My guess is maybe a few thousand dollars per outfit in a modest (few thousand units) production run.

Now, if you want full-body feedback, so you can do things like "feel" a parry, or feel a touch on the opponent, or a saber to the top of the head.... I don't know any way of doing that in a full body suit yet. Don't even try to do that -- that's a multi-million (tens of millions? or more?) development effort just to get that. The most body-feedback I've seen in a operating device was a glove -- and it was a hand build, small production run (like 100 total) making it supremely expensive.

Oh yeah -- you'll probably need a new weapon. Again, so the sensors can track it while it moves.

Now you need the hardware and software to run this. Hardware to pick up the sensors and process the inputs into both an image of you, and that of your opponent or coach. It'll have to run fast enough to recalculate your body and weapon image I'd guess 100x a second while you're moving, and your opponents as well. Since scoring will be when your body/ weapon image intersects with your opponents, you'll need to process two body images, and check for overlap, and then feedback the results to the player/ operator. And you'll need to do this on the fly -- maybe 100x a second.

I don't know off hand any COTS (commercial off the shelf) hardware that can do this. There are a couple of "puppet" hardware/ software programs around (person in a special suit or exoskeleton can make the computer-generated puppet sort of move like a person -- they use this in getting a head start on animating people and objects for computer animation), so I suppose you can start with this. But to generate a good animation of a virtual opponent in real time... that's a powerful processor. My guestimate is an X-cube ^4

Software? Geeze... Again, I think it's doable, but you're talking million$ to develop a) a full body simulator with very high refresh rate. You can start with a puppet program, but you'll going to need to program it with a *bunch* of fending AI, and then program it to respond to your movements in real time. Not cheap or easy.

Now.. do I think we might have one available in the future? Uh huh. I think the computer game market will leap on this technology -- imagine Quake with an outfit like this, or Command & Conquer. Pretty cool.... then all you'd have to do it build up the software side...

When? Maybe 10-20 years. The big breakthrough is going to have to be the head-mounted immersive display, and the body suit (with feedback if possible). Folks are working on things like this, so we might see something in another 5 years or so. Then we'll need the processor and basic hardware/ software to use -- figure another 5-10 years.

Until that time -- get yourself a good set of sparring partners and have fun! You'll learn faster ...

[Rolls]

Is it so hard to find a human practice buddy?

YES.

If I had enough knowledgable people to practice with...

1) I would never come to this forum
2) I would be a LOT better than I am

In my area, finding fencers IS a major hurrdle. I'd pay to practice on a machine...

Wait, I already did when I bought a practice arm...

Anyone looking for beta testers for their VR fencing training machines, I'm volunteering now.



Rolls.

[S. Hunter]

Whats the obsession with expensive, useless electronics. Find this device called a 'Friend', give this 'Friend' a jacket and a foil, and practice movements on this 'Friend'. I could teach a monkey how to drill againt me in two days, and AI is NOT to the point where a machine could do anything except drill anyway.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by S. Hunter

Whats the obsession with expensive, useless electronics. Find this device called a 'Friend', give this 'Friend' a jacket and a foil, and practice movements on this 'Friend'. I could teach a monkey how to drill againt me in two days, and AI is NOT to the point where a machine could do anything except drill anyway.

is that so bad?

[S. Hunter]

is that so bad?

Yes. (It most certainly is)