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achilleus · 10-07-2004, 03:43 PM

So, one of the arguments that people who are against color (of clothing) is that traditionally, uniforms are white.

I was online looking around and found some photos. The photos show fencers wearing black, and possibly grey. Now, traditionallists will immediately counter, with 'Master's can wear black.' However, having read Nadi's book, I know his master's title wasn't conferred till much later.

In addition, notice how the target area is always white, and the off target areas (glove, pants, socks, shoes) are the different color.

So, perhaps this tradition of all white is rather overblown?

(Inq, I'm waiting for a response.)

esskreemr · 10-07-2004, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achilleus

So, one of the arguments that people who are against color (of clothing) is that traditionally, uniforms are white.

So, perhaps this tradition of all white is rather overblown?

(Inq, I'm waiting for a response.)

The tradition of the white uniform is outdated and unneccessary. I'm for a little splash of color. I don't want to see people fencing in spider man uniforms, but something other than white for all would help differentiate the fencers a little.

Pelle · 10-07-2004, 04:08 PM

there is already a thread on this, perhapes check previous thread before starting your own

ZenEpeeist · 10-07-2004, 04:34 PM

More color is good...

Have you checked out the colored masks at all? Your opponent can't see your eyes or what target you are looking at...very cool.

Cavatione · 10-07-2004, 04:52 PM

Actualy, until the beginning of 20th century, uniforms had black pants.

If you go and check some images from 18th or 17th century, you'll notice that pants were still black, but folded to the knees, with black "sockets" and black shoes.

White came later.

But tradition is everything.

So, no colors in my opinion. Fencing is a serious thing.

achilleus · 10-07-2004, 05:35 PM

I'm curious as to the idea that traditionally, fencers only wear white.

It seems from old photos that fencers did indeed where something besides white. It seems that what many of us take for granted, is not indeed true.

That's what I'm interested in. I am not interested in debating whether color should be allowed (of which there are many threads).

Cavatione,

Thanks for the info. I haven't seen any such photos. You got any you could post?

SOA9286 · 10-07-2004, 05:56 PM

I think that perhaps tradition is good, it sets you apart. However, just like the actual sport, things do change.

achilleus · 10-07-2004, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOA9286

I think that perhaps tradition is good, it sets you apart. However, just like the actual sport, things do change.

Ack. Quit it.

I don't want to talk about the value of tradition or the value of change. If you are interested in that, please do a search on colored uniforms and revive that painfully long thread.

I'm talking about the actual tradition. Traditionally, it appears that fencers wore colors besides white.

Currently, we modern fencers tell everyone else, that tradition dictates that we wear white (mostly). We argue amongst ourselves tradition vs. color?

Looking at these photos, and perhaps believing what Cavatione has mentioned, this whole tradition is rather bogus.

Is this true? Does our fencing tradtition actually include color? If so, then where and when did we pick up this notion that uniforms had to be all white? Why are we stuck on it?

Inquartata · 10-07-2004, 06:08 PM

It depends on the parameters one sets for "traditional".

If you extend the limits far enough, you get the strange position that it would be more "traditional" to fence in a chiton or perhaps naked. After all, that's how the Mycenaeans and Minoans and Celts did it with those bronze rapiers of theirs.

Or, a bit less dramatically, we could all fence in normal 16th century street attire.

Or, as in your example, in 19th century attire.

But the sport has been fenced in whites for most of our lifetimes ( I except the teenagers and kids ). It was fenced in whites in our fathers' time. And in our grandfathers'. That is the tradition which matters: the one presently in existence ( now, sadly, being attenuated at every turn ). The tradition which the current participants have been given by their predecessors. Not three iterations of tradition ago, or five, or a dozen.

And before anyone brings it up, the older traditions of fencing yielded to the one we have now for pragmatic reasons: safety, visibility, uniformity, scoring purposes, etc. Or such at least is my presumption. They did not, IMO, change because of a craving for vain "personal expression" or spectator appeal or what have you. They changed because the requirements of the FENCING demanded it, as opposed to the egos and sensibilities of the FENCERS demanding it.

achilleus · 10-07-2004, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

It depends on the parameters one sets for "traditional".

Traditions of the sport of fencing. Not duelling. Not knights with broadswords. The sport of fencing with a foil, epee, or sabre and a mesh mask. That's what I'm looking at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

But the sport has been fenced in whites for most of our lifetimes ( I except the teenagers and kids ). It was fenced in whites in our fathers' time. And in our grandfathers'. That is the tradition which matters: the one presently in existence ( now, sadly, being attenuated at every turn ). The tradition which the current participants have been given by their predecessors. Not three iterations of tradition ago, or five, or a dozen.

Actually, my pop, who never fenced was alive during the Antwerp Olympics, of which one can see a photo.

I started fencing soon after the color restriction was eased. So, I'm used to a predominantly white uniform, but I also am very familiar with pin strips, national logos, large patches, etc...

I thought it so odd when I first saw a tape of the 88 Olympics. All white, no distinguishing marks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

And before anyone brings it up, the older traditions of fencing yielded to the one we have now for pragmatic reasons: safety, visibility, uniformity, scoring purposes, etc. Or such at least is my presumption. They did not, IMO, change because of a craving for vain "personal expression" or spectator appeal or what have you. They changed because the requirements of the FENCING demanded it, as opposed to the egos and sensibilities of the FENCERS demanding it.

Every photo I've seen of Nadi, from his books to online, he's wearing black socks and shoes, and many times black pants. Compare him to his brother, who in every photo I've seen is wearing all white. I definitely think some personal expression was present here.

That said, I agree the rules most likely, the rule didn't shift for personal expression. Most likely they shifted due to a change in scoring methods.

Inquartata · 10-07-2004, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achilleus

Traditions of the sport of fencing. Not duelling. Not knights with broadswords. The sport of fencing with a foil, epee, or sabre and a mesh mask. That's what I'm looking at.

One can always define the boundaries of an issue so narrowly that one almost guarantees the result one desires. But how is that satisfactory, and what does it settle? It would seem to make for a pretty hollow victory to me...

achilleus · 10-07-2004, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

One can always define the boundaries of an issue so narrowly that one almost guarantees the result one desires. But how is that satisfactory, and what does it settle? It would seem to make for a pretty hollow victory to me...

I consider myself a fencer. I don't consider myself a duellist, a knight, a swashbuckler, a pirate, or some other romanticized character who uses a sword. When we talk of tradition in fencing, especially in regards to color, we are speaking of sport fencing. Not duelling, not swashbucklers, not historical fencing, etc...

I don't consider naming the sport of fencing as narrowly defining the boundary. We are discussing the traditions of sport fencing, some of which predate the sport. If we look beyond the sport, we obviously see a variety of colors, sharp weapons, etc...

In fact, I think naming things which we know of during our life and claiming that is the tradition is setting extremely narrow parameters.

D'Artag-NOT · 10-07-2004, 07:22 PM

My understanding is that the white was to best show a mark from a chalked blade tip (in the days before electric fencing). Possibly the breeches and stockings were changed to white as epee fencing became more popular and the legs became valid targets? Just speculating here, and trying to address the actual question.

achilleus · 10-07-2004, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D'Artag-NOT

My understanding is that the white was to best show a mark from a chalked blade tip (in the days before electric fencing). Possibly the breeches and stockings were changed to white as epee fencing became more popular and the legs became valid targets? Just speculating here, and trying to address the actual question.

I appreciate addressing the actual question. We have a plethora of threads on colored uniforms and masks.

I would think something similar, except, I was under the (mistaken?) impression that for epee, they used the point d' arret and not chalk like in foil.

And when did this shift to white only happen?

Also, at the Antwerp Olympics, both Nadi's fenced all three weapons. Aldo, was very found of black socks and shoes minimum.

Then again, I really don't know either. Anyone out there know?

MikeHarm · 10-07-2004, 08:57 PM

Weren't there white uniforms with a little heart on it for a while too? I seem to remember hearing about a style of foil where only striking the heart exactly counted for a touch once.

SOA9286 · 10-07-2004, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achilleus

Ack. Quit it.

I don't want to talk about the value of tradition or the value of change. If you are interested in that, please do a search on colored uniforms and revive that painfully long thread.

I'm talking about the actual tradition. Traditionally, it appears that fencers wore colors besides white.

Currently, we modern fencers tell everyone else, that tradition dictates that we wear white (mostly). We argue amongst ourselves tradition vs. color?

Looking at these photos, and perhaps believing what Cavatione has mentioned, this whole tradition is rather bogus.

Is this true? Does our fencing tradtition actually include color? If so, then where and when did we pick up this notion that uniforms had to be all white? Why are we stuck on it?

Sorry I mispoke. Its not about the values of tradition vs. change, but the acceptance that change does eventually occur. Look at how this sport is played and then look at how it was done 100 years. See the change? Electric...new timings..etc.

I think that theres 2 types of traditions..a modern and a past. Modern tradition dictates fencers to wear white. Past, well, as you see, dictates otherwise.

drippingwet · 10-07-2004, 10:44 PM

I think spandex could have a role to play in fencing.

Cavatione · 10-08-2004, 04:18 AM

Ok, here are some picture:

http://img2.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img2&image=Duello.gif
This one shows a duel between a french (on the left) and an Italian on the right). Second half of XIX century. One is all white, the other has black pants.

http://img2.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img2&i...oulinetold.gif
This one shows a Maestro, traditionally dressed in black. Maestri dressed in black to show their austerity, their dignity and to simbolize what often was a life of sacrifices and dangers on the edge of the sword.

http://img2.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img2&i...aSala800-2.jpg
This one shows a Sala d'Arme of the late 19th century. White is becoming popular.

So, traditionaly, fencing always depicted white and black, with an all black uniform for the maestri.
For sure, no red or nike-looking uniforms...

Sorry if the pictures are small, but this is the way I store them in my PC.
Hope I've been useful.

pkt · 10-08-2004, 05:54 AM

here's a foto from 1902 London town hall showing ladies and gentlemen fencing. From E.D. Morton's A~z of Fencing. page 101.
http://ca.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/flu...&.dnm=66ca.jpg
As you can see, they're all wearing wear jackets and black bottoms be it trousers of skirt.
How wouldl you like to fence in such cramped quarters?

PK

Insipiens · 10-08-2004, 10:59 AM

You are working on the that you conisder yourself a fencer rather than a duellist for defining your tradition and have referred to Nadi several times. But was Nadi a fencer as you consider it? Did he see the distinction between the tradition of duelling and the tradition of fencing? Did the tradition of fencing only start with first modern olympics? How does the fact that Nadi fought at least one duel affect the definition of your tradition?