Fencing Tradition and Color

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by Insipiens

You are working on the that you conisder yourself a fencer rather than a duellist for defining your tradition and have referred to Nadi several times. But was Nadi a fencer as you consider it? Did he see the distinction between the tradition of duelling and the tradition of fencing? Did the tradition of fencing only start with first modern olympics? How does the fact that Nadi fought at least one duel affect the definition of your tradition?

Is that a question for me?

If that's so, well, I call "traditional", at least what is not electrified fencing. Do I consider "modern fencing" bad? Nope... I just think it's not traditional anymore.
Obviously, the passage between a "fence for your life" attitude and a "fence for sport" one didn't ariive all of a sudden... But, if we really want to look for an historical moment, well, the first modern olympic games could be that. Was dueling completely dead? No, 'cause one of the last duel, at least in Italy, was fought around the late '40s.
In many ways, what some other users said in this topic is right: changes occours. That doesn't mean you have to like them at all costs.
For example, I don't die for modern fencing (especially for pistol shaped grips... what are we supposed to do, a gunfight?), so I recall myself to tradition, and the first fully codified one comes from the late 18th century, to still think and try to keep on going with something that we culturally shoudn't forget.

[JackSparrow]

Originally Posted by Insipiens

You are working on the that you conisder yourself a fencer rather than a duellist for defining your tradition and have referred to Nadi several times. But was Nadi a fencer as you consider it? Did he see the distinction between the tradition of duelling and the tradition of fencing? Did the tradition of fencing only start with first modern olympics? How does the fact that Nadi fought at least one duel affect the definition of your tradition?

You should bear in mind that Aldo's brother Nedo is arguably the greatest modern olympic fencing who's ever lived (winning gold in the individual foil and saber and getting a gold medal in all three team events at the 1920 olympics in Antwerp).

Whilst your right that Aldo fought in a duel, to my mind at least, he spent his life as a professional fencer, taking part in individual matches at a time when these bouts ranked amongst the top sporting events in Europe. Aldo Nadi was a fencer not a duellist and to suggest that he was either around before the first modern olympics or that he didn't make any distinction between fencing and dueling is wrong.

[Schiavona]

Cavatione, the pictures are pretty neat. I really like the dueling one, esp. the stance the Italian has. No arm back for him!

I've always thought that the white uniforms were part of a scoring system, thus a technological change.

I've seen pictures of men fencing bare chested wearing masks and using foils. A good question to ask would be when did jackets come into use?

[cfaustus]

Ok,

time to sort out a few of the mysteries of the past...

Fencers once wore dark colors to show chalk marks. The move to white occurred when the chalk was replaced with a red dye.

The little red heart as target was one of the extreme indulgences done by fencers during the classical era. They were derided by duelists as being too academic and arbitrary for restricting their target to such a small area. Bazancourt discusses this in his book.

Personal preference: I like white because it looks so clean and sharp. However, I would be open to other plain fields of color, such as all blue or all red (no patterns) as long as the colors are subdued... patterns would make distinguishing blade placement difficult, and even though we have the wonderful scoring machines which never lie :sarcasm: , I still think it is nice to be able to actually see where a hit landed. Bright colors might be too garish and undignified... not to mention it might hurt people's eyes and it may also make problems for TV cameras to get the color balance right if we are up there like a bunch of parrots. Remember, fencing is all about pleasing the spectators and the TV, right?

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

Cavatione, the pictures are pretty neat. I really like the dueling one, esp. the stance the Italian has. No arm back for him!

I've always thought that the white uniforms were part of a scoring system, thus a technological change.

I've seen pictures of men fencing bare chested wearing masks and using foils. A good question to ask would be when did jackets come into use?

That stance is the traditional italian... like a coil ready to be released. Look better: the arms is back, but is closer to the face, in order not to give a target to the opponent and to give explosive energy in the moment of the "affondo" (lunge). The real strenght of a good affondo is not in the armed hand, but in the off hand, in the moment you shoot it behind you parallell to your body (that enhance your stability as well).

Fencing bare chested was a duel thing: it was for the first blood duels tipycal of the 19th century, in order to see wounds on the selected valid target .(chest, arms)

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by Cavatione

Fencing bare chested was a duel thing: it was for the first blood duels tipycal of the 19th century, in order to see wounds on the selected valid target .(chest, arms)

Often done with a point d'arret

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Ok,

time to sort out a few of the mysteries of the past...

Fencers once wore dark colors to show chalk marks. The move to white occurred when the chalk was replaced with a red dye.

That might be one of the reasons. But black and white were in use before sport needs came to life. I.e. still in the dueling era.

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Often done with a point d'arret

That's right.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Insipiens

You are working on the that you conisder yourself a fencer rather than a duellist for defining your tradition and have referred to Nadi several times. But was Nadi a fencer as you consider it? Did he see the distinction between the tradition of duelling and the tradition of fencing? Did the tradition of fencing only start with first modern olympics? How does the fact that Nadi fought at least one duel affect the definition of your tradition?

Nadi was a professional fencer, and before that an amatuer who competed in the Olympics. He was a sport fencer who fought a duel.

If you've read his horribly written book (which I like to call, 'It's all about me!'), then you would know that Nadi was not a duellist. In fact he goes into detail how different the sport of fencing is from duelling.

I'm a modern sport fencer. I flick. I try to win within the rules. This doesn't mean I am ignorant of the history of the sport, or that I discount previous generations of olympians merely because they didn't fence like I do now.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by achilleus

[font=Book Antiqua]
I consider myself a fencer. I don't consider myself a duellist, a knight, a swashbuckler, a pirate, or some other romanticized character who uses a sword. When we talk of tradition in fencing, especially in regards to color, we are speaking of sport fencing.

In your opinion. I suspect that 17th century Frenchmen and 18th century Italians and 19th century British also considered themselves fencers, whatever weapon they were using or where and why they were using it. The word "fence" goes back a long way...

SCA rapier people consider themselves "fencers". So do WMA practitioners. So do classical fencers---in fact, your position strongly resembles that of the classical folks, many of seem strongly committed to the position that only their version of the art should get to be called fencing and everything else ought to be made to use a different name ( like "lewt" or "whippo" ).

I don't see it that narrowly, myself. I think that fencing is fencing, it is a mansion with many houses.

Now, as to why white used not to be as prevalent, or at least not universal.

1) I note that in the pictures you posted, invariably it is the upper
body---the jacket---which is white, while the rest varies. I wonder if this were noot a practical matter. At the time, keeping clothing in regular use, such as socks, white must have been trying. Laundering methods were relatively primitive, air conditioning was nonexistent, the air in industrial cities was thick with soot and other pollutants. The jacket would have been a specialized garment, worn only for recreation, but the rest of the clothing may simply have been drafted from civilian use, rather in the way fencers today often wear shorts or sweatpants and a variety of socks, and often nonfencing shoes...but always the jacket.

2) We must be careful when we try to draw rules from these pictures. Does the appearance of dark socks in a club picture prove that they were used in competitions? Does the third picture, showing two foilists in dark trousers, prove this was common practice on formal occasions? No more I think than it proves fencing was done without the masks the two men are not wearing...

The Olympic photo is perhaps more probative, but are we certain this is from the competition, not a warm-up bout?

In any event, the bottom line is: has white been traditional fencing wear for the last generation ( taking a generation to be 20 years or so )? Yes. The one before that? Yes. Before that? Still yes. In fact it has been so for almost a century. By modern terms, this is a very long tradition indeed...

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

In your opinion. I suspect that 17th century Frenchmen and 18th century Italians and 19th century British also considered themselves fencers, whatever weapon they were using or where and why they were using it. The word "fence" goes back a long way...

SCA rapier people consider themselves "fencers". So do WMA practitioners. So do classical fencers---in fact, your position strongly resembles that of the classical folks, many of seem strongly committed to the position that only their version of the art should get to be called fencing and everything else ought to be made to use a different name ( like "ewt" or "whippo" ).

I don't see it that narrowly, myself. I think that fencing is fencing, it is a mansion with many houses.

You miss my point. While all the people you describe fence, in one way or another, they are not all fencers. Just as I use math on a daily basis at work, but I am not a mathematician.

The Nadi's were fencers. D'artagnan was a musketeer.
Both fenced.

So I agree with you, fencing is a large mansion with many houses.

Although Webster's dictionary might disagree...

Main Entry: fenc·ing
Function: noun
1 : the art or practice of attack and defense with the foil, épee, or saber

Now, you keep wanting to bring in other forms of fencing, but I see it as rather irrelevant. In terms of color, the FIE had the restrictions about white. When the arguments occur about allowing color, we are always talking about colored lames, national logos, etc...
In other words, Sport Fencing. Not SCA, not WMA, not Kendo, not any other type of fencing you can think of.

The argrument often used against color is tradition. In the tradition of the FIE and the Olympics, black and white seem to be allowed.

[Dclax07]

Why do people WANT to wear colors?

If its to set you apart from other fencers, um

"let the sword do the talking"

I personally think all white is professional and classy

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Dclax07

Why do people WANT to wear colors?

If its to set you apart from other fencers, um

"let the sword do the talking"

I personally think all white is professional and classy

*Sigh*

Sometimes, I despair.

[telkanuru]

Because colour lends to an air of competiton. It helps spectators see who's who, and to root for their colour like the romans did in their chariot races. There's no need for all-white conformity. If you like white, wear it. If I like green, let me wear green. The only issue I see with colour is destractability. Keep it to pastels.

Inquarta, I'm opening an audition for Fiddler on the Roof. Would you like the part of the Grandfather? (Tradition!) Ok, ok, I'm done

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Because colour lends to an air of competiton. It helps spectators see who's who, and to root for their colour like the romans did in their chariot races. There's no need for all-white conformity. If you like white, wear it. If I like green, let me wear green. The only issue I see with colour is destractability. Keep it to pastels.

Inquarta, I'm opening an audition for Fiddler on the Roof. Would you like the part of the Grandfather? (Tradition!) Ok, ok, I'm done

As this thread grows, I'm so sorry I started it.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by achilleus

As this thread grows, I'm so sorry I started it.

As well you should be.

[Inquartata]

Heh, you should not be surprised that if you taunt the monkey he will throw feces at you!

Just to finish on an authoritative note:

Main Entry: tra·di·tion
Pronunciation: tr&-'di-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tradicioun, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French tradition, from Latin tradition-, traditio action of handing over, tradition -- more at TREASON
1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style
- tra·di·tion·al /-'dish-n&l, -'di-sh&-n&l/ adjective
- tra·di·tion·al·ly adverb
- tra·di·tion·less /-'di-sh&n-l&s/ adjective

I do not see anything there about a tradition having to go back to the beginning of a practice or activity, or any minimum length of time required for it to be a legitimate tradition.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Heh, you should not be surprised that if you taunt the monkey he will throw feces at you!

Just to finish on an authoritative note:

Main Entry: tra·di·tion
Pronunciation: tr&-'di-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English tradicioun, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French tradition, from Latin tradition-, traditio action of handing over, tradition -- more at TREASON
1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style
- tra·di·tion·al /-'dish-n&l, -'di-sh&-n&l/ adjective
- tra·di·tion·al·ly adverb
- tra·di·tion·less /-'di-sh&n-l&s/ adjective

I do not see anything there about a tradition having to go back to the beginning of a practice or activity, or any minimum length of time required for it to be a legitimate tradition.

Alright back on topic.

So then, what for the purposes of this argument, constitutes a tradition? Since I've been fencing, I've seen national logos, and small designs allowed. And now, the logos are much bigger. Is that tradition?

Before my time, nothing but white was allowed, is that the tradition? And either way, when did this tradition start? Obviously after Nadi's time.

Before that time, obviously white, black, and possibly grey were allowed. Is that the tradition?