Teaching "proper" form when it isn't "natural"

[Tomas N]

I have a newbie in my fencing class who has the classic "hunched over" look when fencing. Front shoulder lower than the back, arm and shoulders are too tense, on guard is somewhere hovering between 6 and 4, arm is too close to the body in on guard, hard to get him to point his front foot forward. I keep trying to get him to fence in a more relaxed, upright position, but he immediately reverts to his "natural" form once a lesson or drill begins.

So the question is this. Do I just say, hey, this is the way your body works and we'll try to customize your development to what is obviously your "natural" stance? Or do I spend a lot of time trying to get him to get in the standard position?

One example would be that since his arm is back against his body and he's gripping the foil so tightly, it's hard for him to do a parry 8. He just reverts to a parry 2, regardless of how many times we go through and explain the parry 8. So instead of focusing on 8, I could just teach him what to do with a 2 in terms of ripostes. And perhaps, I guess, hope that somewhere down the line, he loosens up enough that an 8 is more natural?

OK, enough rambling.

Tomas

[scrapinpeg]

Show him the defects of his stance by hitting him wherever it makes him weak. Get hit often enough, and one's body will start correcting unconsciously to avoid the repeated discomfort. If you reinforce this with repeatedly making him assume proper form, it gives his body some muscle memory to revert to when it's looking for alternative positions.

As an alternative, just stop every time he assumes improper form, and make him do it right before continuing the lesson.

[sabreur]

When giving a lesson, stop frequently and use your weapon (foil in this case) to correct his stance. Push his weapon to the right position, tap his rear shoulder until he straightens up, tap his knee to force it out. Slow way down. See Sabo on using the weapon to correct faults in the stance. This way, you don't have to break position and move to him to correct it.

It is really important that he get it right now--a lot easier to correct before things become set in muscle memory.

To correct the problem of holding the weapon too tightly, do tap drills. You tap his weapon, he taps yours back. Tap on both sides--i.e., tap on the outside, and he taps back. Then you disengage and tap on the inside, and he taps back.

When he can do this standing still, combine it with SLOW advances and retreats--he follows distance and taps.

When he can do this, then you eventually throw in a thrust to be parried. Tap-tap back, tap-tap back, tap-tap back, thrust in the 4 line, parry 4 riposte.

MR

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

Show him the defects of his stance by hitting him wherever it makes him weak. Get hit often enough, and one's body will start correcting unconsciously to avoid the repeated discomfort.

Psychologically, positive reinforment has been shown in studies to be superior to negative reinforcement. So giving him positive feedback when he finally gets it right actually will teach him faster. Get him in a situation where he repeatedly does the move correctly (for some people this is tough) and then give him positive feedback. When he does the move incorrectly, give him neutral (not negative) feedback. Think of pavlov's dogs...

[Larrison]

I learned to fence in a facility that was shared with a dance studio. The advantage of this was floor to ceiling mirrors all along one wall. A lot of fencing studios have the same.

If a new student is having problems with form, have them look at themselves in the mirror. A lot of times, and particularly with young people, they have not matched their body's posture to what their mind is telling them they are in.

For example, have them go on guard facing the mirror. Point out to them where the bell should be held, and their shoulder/ body alignment. Most of the time they'll look at themselves and there's an "Aha!" moment as they realize they are out of where they want to be. Similarly, turn them so they can see their on-guard position, and move them until their arm and legs/ shoulders are approximately right. Then they have a mental image to match. Also, have them lunge at right angles to the mirror and hold the lunge -- which allows them to check their form. I've also found it useful for them to watch themselves and pointing out to them what they are doing as they advance or retreat in front of the mirror if they are "bobbing" instead of a smooth flat advance/ retreat.

Using the mirror gives them feedback on where they want to put their body, and they can practise this every day at home. After a few weeks it become natural, as they learn the feedback that "this is how the body is supposed to be held".

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by Larrison

If a new student is having problems with form, have them look at themselves in the mirror. A lot of times, and particularly with young people, they have not matched their body's posture to what their mind is telling them they are in.

This helps a lot for visual learners..like you and me. I've met people who can't learn this way, though, and wouldn't get the same benefit from this. Some people benefit more from being told what is correct, others need to feel the right position in order to make it "click".

[cfaustus]

Aside from the excellent advice given above, may I suggest a few other points?

Originally Posted by Tomas N

I have a newbie in my fencing class who has the classic "hunched over" look when fencing. Front shoulder lower than the back, arm and shoulders are too tense, on guard is somewhere hovering between 6 and 4, arm is too close to the body in on guard, hard to get him to point his front foot forward. I keep trying to get him to fence in a more relaxed, upright position, but he immediately reverts to his "natural" form once a lesson or drill begins.

Where did he learn his stance from initially? Being tense and having 'classic' form having nothing in common. It is possible to have a proper classical stance and be relaxed. The trick I find with many rigid students is they focus too much on their shoulders and back... It is as if they are supporting some great weight... my instructor suggested the idea of letting the legs carry that weight. The legs are strong, they can take it. When I make this suggestion to students I can see the muscles in their back and shoulders relax as the put more of their weight into their legs... oddly enough, their footwork becomes more fluid as a consequence of their being more cogniscent of their legs bearing the ever occuring shifting of their weight.

Also, regarding the guard 'between 4 and 6' this is a valid guard, refered to as 'center guard'. It can be quite effective as it allows one to parry to any of the 4 quadrants quickly. However, it really only works if the fencer is utilizing almost exclusively beat parries executed from the fingers. If one uses opposition parries from a center guard, it can leave them open and often they may make their opposition parries far too wide. Either have them take one of the standard numbered guards or teach them how to beat parry from the fingers without moving the hand.

Originally Posted by Tomas N

So the question is this. Do I just say, hey, this is the way your body works and we'll try to customize your development to what is obviously your "natural" stance? Or do I spend a lot of time trying to get him to get in the standard position?

To be a good fencer one needs the ability to discipline ones whole being. This starts with the body. The individual needs to work on correcting their form. As long as their body is capable of it, they should not be given excuses. Of course, if the individual has an accute scoliosis, or a short leg, or some other physical atribute which simply precludes them having 'text book form' then allowances should be made. Take the time to correct his form. It may take a while but it will make everything else work better. As a side note, I have noticed that there are more 'rigid' youth starting fencing. They lack the grace of movement one would call 'athletic'. I do not know if this is a result of our sedentary culture or what. What I have found to be helpful is to do exercises focused on giving them a better sense of their bodies and their bodies' movement. Specifically, I incorporate stretches and center work from Ballet excercises. If you do not have ballet in your background, the New York City Ballet put out an excellent book and series of tapes you can use as a starting palce. I also have the students do foot work on a balance beam to make them get a better sense of balance.

Originally Posted by Tomas N

One example would be that since his arm is back against his body and he's gripping the foil so tightly, it's hard for him to do a parry 8. He just reverts to a parry 2, regardless of how many times we go through and explain the parry 8. So instead of focusing on 8, I could just teach him what to do with a 2 in terms of ripostes. And perhaps, I guess, hope that somewhere down the line, he loosens up enough that an 8 is more natural?

If the fencer is having trouble keeping the elbow of their the weapon arm away from their chest, tell them that the distance should be about an apples width away (in standard French form). To reinforce this take and apple or tennis ball (they don't bruise like apples do) and have the student hold this lightly between their elbow and torso while they perform their parries. When you have them extend for an attack and tehn recover, cehck the position of their elbow every time and correct it immediately if they bring the arm too far back.

Just my two cents....

[acaba]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

As an alternative, just stop every time he assumes improper form, and make him do it right before continuing the lesson.

I use this method a lot for beginners. First I begin by using my blade to properly position the student's body. Once the lesson starts, I keep giving reminders: "Hand positon" ... "turn your hips" ... "Where are your feet?". after 3-5 lessons, they usually begin to get it. The reminders get shortened to "Hand", "Hips", "Feet" now that the student and I begin to understand each other. Sometimes I just have to point my weapon at the offending body part, and it gets fixed.

Once the student is mostly in the right position, I begin to use more direct feedback. All lessons are given in full gear, both coach & student. When I feel that the beginner should 'know' the right position, I begin to show why it is important. With the blade. Sabre example: student makes head cut, but returns to enguarde with the guard in the center of the chest. I make a (gentle but quick) cut to fore-arm. Now the student not only 'knows' where I want his arm, but he also KNOWS WHY I want it there.

I am always amazed at how fast this tactic gets the student to start doing the right thing. While this may be considered negative feedback, it is important for the student to understand the consequences of hsi/her actions. I also give plenty of positive feedback through the rest of the lesson.

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by acaba

I am always amazed at how fast this tactic gets the student to start doing the right thing. While this may be considered negative feedback, it is important for the student to understand the consequences of hsi/her actions. I also give plenty of positive feedback through the rest of the lesson.

This doesn't seem negative to me at all. More informational than negative...

Manipulating the persons legs, arms, etc, with the weapon is something I pull out on occasion for somebody who learns via kinesthetics, i.e. touch. On others I'll show them how I hold the guard so that they can see me and learn: visual (we don't have mirrors unfortunately to link it with the kinesthetic). On others I'll describe very carefully with words what they should do and when they get into position, then I'll link it to the kinesthic by saying "do you feel the position now? good!" and believe it or not even though you wouldn't think it, many people can learn this way also.

[SwordSoul]

I'm glad to read someone talking about "classical" fencing in this way, particularly the comments on the center guard and 'finger parries' vs. oppositional parries. I'll admit i typically view classical fencing in a fairly negative (i.e. 'outdated') light. I plan to make an effort of seeing the useful and universal concepts in classic and modern fencing--

I would like to add to the above that I try to use positive reinforcement by explaining the reasons for everything-- not just explain why you don't want him to hold the weapon this way or that, but also conditioning and attitude, etc...

F'rinstance, with a lot of the new people in my club, although i didn necessarily plan to do this, but they equate the phrase "get stronger" with "getting lower" when the going gets tough for the en guarde conditioning drills we do. Relating an extended arm first as "aim before you fire." that kind of thing (and then really relate the idea of firing that weapon with your lunge.... or a snake strike... any imagery that helps convey the idea.)

[vegan]

Hi all,
so . . . . i think the primary problem with this student is not the posture; but the tension. Some fencers can't seem to get a "tradtional" on guard (body balanced, shoulders even, feet 90 degrees, etc.) right no matter how much they try (it's unnatural for them), but htis does not make them any less capable- a few examples; Iris Zimmermans feet are rarely at 90 degrees, most of the time, it's a lot less, yet she is a great fencer! and John Tiompkin has what must be the most difficult on guard I've ever seen (body and rear leg in the same line, very far foreward on the front leg, back shoulder up a bit from front, and very, very, very low)- at least, it would be for me; however there is little doubt that he is a great fencer. Both of these athletes are supremely relaxed when they fence, and this is why the unique guard positions and footwork positions work so well.
I try to teach all of my students to use as little muscle tension as possible when fencing (ideally none!); they then can move with ease and when there is need for a strong (uses muscle) action the muscles are ready. There is a great article on this at dave littels Liberty fencing alliance website.
CHeers,
B.

[achilleus]

Vegan had some great points that are important to note. The look of the guard position is irrelevant. What's important is the effectiveness and efficiency of the position.

That said, one thing that fencing coaches often overlook is a fundamental reason why some fencers have trouble with technique. The answer is quite simple, muscles.

If one has a weak back, specifically right between the shoulder blades, one is going to hunch causing tightness in the shoulders. If one has weak stomach muscles, one is going to slouch from the stomach. If ones leg muscles are not developed evenly, holding the feet constantly bent at angles will be impossible.

Just telling such a person to relax, or sit up straight only takes care of the symptom but ignores the fundamental problem. The way to correct such problems is through a physical training program to correct the deficiencies.

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by vegan

Hi all,
so . . . . i think the primary problem with this student is not the posture; but the tension.

Probably true. I've seen beginners as stiff as a board. Inevitably they either learn to relax or quit.

I would use the same strategies to get through to them. If they are kinesthetic learners, have them do eyes closed footwork while relaxed to learn their balance and relax their muscles. If they are visual, have them visualize themselves as relaxed. Ask them if they've ever been on a really good vacation to bring those images and feelings foremost into their head before teaching them. If they are auditory leaners, then use absurd words and imagery to get them to relax. Crack a joke, a little laughter can go a long way.

Most people are tense because they have some sort of fear, worry, doubt, etc that is getting in the way of their fencing. If you can calm their anxieties, then you can get a relaxed fencer.

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by achilleus

That said, one thing that fencing coaches often overlook is a fundamental reason why some fencers have trouble with technique. The answer is quite simple, muscles.

I think is important to know of any physical impairments that prevent somebody from doing a move. If they have these, then you might have to tailor a strategy to the person to account for this.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by ZenEpeeist

I think is important to know of any physical impairments that prevent somebody from doing a move. If they have these, then you might have to tailor a strategy to the person to account for this.

I'm not talking about a physical impairment. I'm talking about weak muscles. I fenced for years. My coaches always yelled at me for having a tight shoulder. I relaxed it when I was told. I stretched, but my should would always tighten. Years later, while working with a physical therapist for a completely unrelated issue, I mentioned how my shoulders were always tight. The response was quick:

'Well that's because you carry your shoulders too far foward. Your shoulders should be here. Use these muscles in your back to pull them back. Good. They won't stay there. You've spent most of your life doing this, your chest is stronger than your back and pulls the shoulders forward, and these muscles that you need to use are underdeveloped. Let me show you some exercises to do that will strengthen these muscles...'

It wasn't an impairment, it's learning about how the body works and why some people hunch, some don't. It's about learning that making someone relax the shoulder isn't going to be fixed by simply saying 'relax the shoulder' every 5 min.

[OffTarget]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Where did he learn his stance from initially? Being tense and having 'classic' form having nothing in common. It is possible to have a proper classical stance and be relaxed. ....

Not to be too picky, but mehtinks you are too defensive and maybe possessive with the word 'classic' and its derivations. (You too Swordsoul)

I think the description is only used to say that the students poor position is frequently seen and a common error, not one attributable to the Classical school of fencing.

[Tomas N]

Originally Posted by cfaustus

Being tense and having 'classic' form having nothing in common. It is possible to have a proper classical stance and be relaxed. The trick I find with many rigid students is they focus too much on their shoulders and back... It is as if they are supporting some great weight... my instructor suggested the idea of letting the legs carry that weight. The legs are strong, they can take it. When I make this suggestion to students I can see the muscles in their back and shoulders relax as the put more of their weight into their legs... oddly enough, their footwork becomes more fluid as a consequence of their being more cogniscent of their legs bearing the ever occuring shifting of their weight.
..

First off, this is a good conversation. Gets me thinking about different approaches if nothing else. I like the imagery of the legs carrying the weight rather than the back.

Second, I used "classic" in a confusing way there. I meant to say "typical." My vision of the "classical" form "proper" on guard is a perfectly relaxed upper body with your weight evenly distributed between your legs, etc.

As for where he's learned fencing, he's been going at it for about a month or so now twice a week.

Tomas

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by achilleus

I'm not talking about a physical impairment. I'm talking about weak muscles.

Sorry...I didn't mean my post to be taken that way. I guess it was, though, and I apologize.

You have a good point about physical therapy. I cross train for fencing by running 4-5 miles 5 times a week and I have knee problems that I have to work on that are due to sports. I went to a physical therapist and she told me to strengthen another set of muscles to get everything back in line.

I've also seen people who have physical impairments (i.e. they broke their wrist and can't hold a foil correctly). Hopefully these people will tell you about their impairments. Sometimes they won't and you have to ask. Whenever somebody has an impairment, I have to come up with alternate solutions. For example, someone in our club has lower back problems. I try to emphasize less lunging and more advancing to her. I know that lunging is important, but she has an extra vertabrea (sp?) that puts stress upon her back.

[Tomas N]

Vegan, Achilleus, others:

The "tension" versus the "bad form" is I think what is stumping me right now. The direction I'm leaning in right now is to try to get the student to "loosen up" more and worry about other stuff later. Perhaps a visit to our resident yoga/dance guru would be a good first step.

Tomas

[cfaustus]

Just a quick note:

The notes about muscle development are right on... for one thing the lower abs on most people seem way under developed leading to the 'bum stickin' out' on guard... fencing specific strength training is very helpful in combination with some sort of grace/movement exercises.

Second, I am sorry if I seemed 'defensive' of the term classical. All I was really looking for was clarity. Thanks for your clarification Tomas N.