Teaching "proper" form when it isn't "natural"

[BrianH]

Thanks, everyone, for a thoughtful discussion of a problem we all face when we teach beginners. It's nice to see a range of suggestions and approaches to difficulties like incorrect posture and tense muscles.

I have the students play a number of games to loosen up and develop concentration at the same time. They work on good technique, focus and relaxation at the same time, and it's also fun for me.

I'll try the tennis ball between elbow and side tomorrow, instead of just saying it should be a fist's width for foil. Thanks for the suggestion.

[achilleus]

Vegan, Achilleus, others:

The "tension" versus the "bad form" is I think what is stumping me right now. The direction I'm leaning in right now is to try to get the student to "loosen up" more and worry about other stuff later. Perhaps a visit to our resident yoga/dance guru would be a good first step.

Tomas

Tomas,

I view good technique as the most efficient and economical way to achieve the desired result, not what looks pretty or the old paintings you see of fencers on guard.

That said, since every body is different, everybody's guard position is somewhat unique.

To that end, relaxed, fluid, and effective are much more important than looks. When traveling outside the States, you'll see some very unique guard positions, some of which are very, very effective.

[D'Artag-NOT]

I was a very tense beginner. To this day, whenever my coach says, "Relax your shoulders!" I assume my name is about to follow. (It doesn't.)

Can't really say how I overcame this, except by trying to consciously be aware of whether my shoulders and my weapon hand are relaxed or not.

My coach did suggest a shot of vodka before each practice . . .

[vegan]

Wow, this is pretty cool chat!
some further coments:
D'not- the vodka thing seems to be coming from russian coaches (some have suggested as much to me, and not a few fencers either- but all russian!).
The on guard position is as achillius suggests, relaxed and fluid- with knees able to move, and weapon hand able to move.
So . . . CFaustus, what movement grace ideas?
Thomas- send them for yoga- it'll be better in the long run.
what types of str. training are we talking about- including back str. ideas from Achillius.
Cheers,
B.
Ps. sorry for spelling badly

[mackillian]

My coach suggested valium for my tense shoulders.

I'm also not sure how I corrected the tension, but I'm now totally relaxed when I fence. It might have to do with not being worried about screwing up. If it happens, it happens, and I learn from my mistakes.

Like Achilleus, I also had bad posture for most of my life. I had physical therapist at the beginning of this year and corrected my posture. The difference is fantastic, but I still can have stiff shoulders at times.

[FencingWench]

I have to agree that I find constant reminders to my students about their posture the best way to correct any form problems. (I believe the words "straighten your back" pass my lips at least 10 times a practice this semester!) That said, I do occasionally use what most people would term negative reinforcement.

In one on one drills with beginners, I do sometimes ask the student to drop and give me 10 push-ups. I know this sounds cruel and unusual (I hate it when I have to do it!), but I have found it effective for 2 reasons. First, there is a reason for the student to keep their form at the forefront of their mind that they can easily understand. (Most beginners won't understand changing posture, etc as beneficial to their fencing because they simply lack experience.) Second, too many mistakes and the student becomes physically tired. This means they literally have less energy to put into being tense.

I only recommend this in small doses, but it does seem to be effective for my college kids. But I reiterate, that I use constant correction and everything else people have mentioned much more.

[SwordSoul]

That brings up an excellent point about knowing your students: Between telling 2 fencers to "drop and give me 10," one could say "Hai Sensei!!!" and the other would scoff and leave then and there... so, be aware of your student's mentality in the sense of what kind of reinforcement they respond to.

In my Concepts of Coaching class, we took a quick survey by show of hands who responds to a coach constantly on their case in a perceptibly negative way and who is turned off by that, prefering (sp) a much more positive and guided style. It was about half and half--of course the issue is not which is more effective so much as who prefers what, and maybe then each could be respectively more effective?

anywho: I also have a few ways of reinforcing using something like pushups--for example we play a game called "10 perfect lunges" where the whole team has to do 10 lunges on my successive counts and if someone missteps or i catch someone not extending first, or they recover when i don't tell them to, or lunges when i skip a number etc...I start the whole team over. On the other hand, sometimes I stop everyone in the middle of a footwork drill and do a "stance check." No penalties there, just telling everyone to suddenly be aware of themselves with the aim of making them aware of good or bad habits they're picking up.

there are different categories of learning and teaching, and the best educators i think can use different styles effectively--the above examples are a good showing of "Teacher controlled-direct style" followed by "Self-guided free exploration-style." One gets a result RIGHT NOW, and the other they find for themselves. and both have equal merit.

Often I will sound like this during the beginning of a drill, a sort of check list before we begin: "Get lower, relax your shoulders, Jen, where's your tip? Mike, where's your back hand? Eyes on your opponent, good, Chris, 90 degrees please, Cole, way to be ready, good Jen, that's better...Okay, this side of the room will begin by extending and advancing in line four, that side will..." It's not bad because just the attitude that I bring to that checklist is sort of "Okay everyone here we go! Better shape up! Ready?" just make sure to throw positivity in there too.

Just my $0.03 (y'know, the economy and all..)
matt

[pkt]

...
Where did he learn his stance from initially? Being tense and having 'classic' form having nothing in common. ...

Notice the word "classic" is in quotation marks?

Larrison's suggestion and explanation about using mirrors is very much in line with helping one to acquire body awareness.

IMHO, one of the better explanations to you, the coach, is to help the student understand that there is a reason for doing everything in fencing, like in ballet. The desired positions may seem awkward and unnatural at first, but they work best for the job at hand. It is something that generations of fencers arrived at given what we need to do.

It is easier to experience teh hardship at the beginning and learn it right than to having to unlearn the wrong habits later...

As to how hard one should hold a weapon: "...Hold it as if it was a little bird: too tightly, you'll squeeze it to death; too loosely, it'll fly away." [Accompany the 'fly away' bit with the appropriate motion gesture of the hand showing the bird flying away...]

Or, if you ever go out for Chinese food with this student, the same dictum applies to wielding chopsticks too. Properly held, i.e. not too tightly and not too loosely, chopsticks can be used to cut noodles like a pair of scissors. All these generations of Chinese people through the millenia can't be wrong.

If all else fails, a bit of wacking can always help to make the point...

PK