Protection from flick hits

[JackSparrow]

I don't know how many of you guys recieved it but I just got sent an E-mail from Leon Paul urging me to buy their hard plastic chest protector.
http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Sho...ectors_38.html

As you can see from the link, they go on about it stopping painfull hits in epee, which is fair enough. However, in the E-mail they sent me they try a different tactic, saying :-

'In foil when you hit a hard surface the time a point stays depressed is decreased. This means that with the new timing for foil, fencers are saying that some flick hits on the hard plastic guards are not registering, giving them an advantage.'

My question is this, firstly is there any truth in this? Secondly, would you use one for that reason or would you consider it another example of cheating/ unsportsman like behaviour?

[IanSerotkin]

My question is this, firstly is there any truth in this?

Absolutely. Even under the old settings it is it harder to land attacks--especially flicks--when your opponent is wearing a plate. With the new timing, it's even more effective.

Secondly, would you use one for that reason or would you consider it another example of cheating/ unsportsman like behaviour?

One of the better foil fencers in my club has worn one for years because he bruises very easily (I've seen proof). However, I don't think he particularly minds the fact that it makes him harder to hit.

Since the timing changes, I think half the foilists in my club--including myself--have considered buying a chest plate. I don't think it's cheating in the slightest...it's just taking advantage of a silly rule implemented by international stupidheads.

[cowpaste]

I don't see how a chest protector would help against flicks with the old timings. A solid chest protector is much easier to depress the tip against than the flab. If you don't believe me, try flicking your bed and then your pillow. If you play with your sword often near your bed, this should not be a hassle. Anyway, you should notice that it is much easier to get a "click" when you flick your more solid bed. However, assuming that the tip depresses in both cases, I am not sure which one would depress longer. I should do a test at home....

[suregrip]

My son has worn one since he was a child. He got it because he WAS a child, fencing adults, who flicked hard, and gave him no quarter. Unless the flick was dead-on, it would not register - instead, it would APPEAR to go dead on, then suddenly slide sideways and go flat. I think this is the protection everyone is talking about.

[downunder]

It should make no difference under the old timings,

but having refereed L8 fights at a major british competition with the new timings i can say that a chest protector reduces the chance of the light coming on

[noodle]

I don't see how a chest protector would help against flicks with the old timings. A solid chest protector is much easier to depress the tip against than the flab. If you don't believe me, try flicking your bed and then your pillow. If you play with your sword often near your bed, this should not be a hassle. Anyway, you should notice that it is much easier to get a "click" when you flick your more solid bed. However, assuming that the tip depresses in both cases, I am not sure which one would depress longer. I should do a test at home....

it is much easier for a flick to catch on a non-flat surface where there is give. as an example with your bed, you can be parallel to a pillow and perform a straight attack and make it land because of the creases and folds, you can't do it on your mattress because there's nothing to catch.

[Insipiens]

The Leon Paul stand at the first British open of the season using the new timings was selling them like hot cakes.

[cfaustus]

Doesn't bother me.

Just don't flick.

Amazing what a good, old-fashioned, straight thrust can accomplish.

[oiuyt]

Actually from what I've heard (note I'v eonly used the new timings for sabre, not for foil), a number of direct thrusts to a hard surface (ie chest plated) are debouncing too quickly to register now. If true, bring on the body armor.

-B :)

[edew]

Yes, even straight thrusts, if done not just right, might not get the light to go off.

What I wanted (prior to the change in the lights, but probably still useful) is body armor over the shoulders, around the flank, and even around the arms and elbows. That's for the physical protection: somehow my funnybone (humerus) seems to have a magnetic effect towards my opponent's blades: always manage to get my funnybone whacked at, at least once in every major event. Hurts like the dickens and I can't grip for about 10 minutes.

[cfaustus]

Actually from what I've heard (note I'v eonly used the new timings for sabre, not for foil), a number of direct thrusts to a hard surface (ie chest plated) are debouncing too quickly to register now. If true, bring on the body armor.

-B

Hmmmm... really?

Just curious but do you mean even straight thrusts to the side of the torso (that part which is perpendicular to my fencing line) and delivered with a three finger bend? Or are just refering to minimum force to depress touches whic land on the breast plate which is at an angle other than 90 degrees from my line?

[grotto]

Hmmmm... really?

Just curious but do you mean even straight thrusts to the side of the torso (that part which is perpendicular to my fencing line) and delivered with a three finger bend? Or are just refering to minimum force to depress touches whic land on the breast plate which is at an angle other than 90 degrees from my line?

[SARCASM] What!!! cfaustus, please! Using angulation during an attack so the tip arrives at target at approx 90 degrees! hearesy![/SARCASM]

I can see where having a chest protector would stop an acute angle hit, just like those stiff cotton duc jackets do, less surface for the tip to catch on and stay depressed (for 15ms) The smart competitive fencer will adjust their style, just like they did to parry a flick to the shoulder etc.

[edew]

Look, cfaustus has made it abundantly clear by his posts that he has never really fenced in any tough sort of competition. No fencer in his right mind is going to analyze whether he's hitting with a "three-finger bend" and that the hit is 90 degrees to the target. All competitive fencers just stick the blade out and hit. The training during lessons drill the feel and the motion into the muscles so that such esoterica are ignored during the bouting.

[Madmartigan]

It is the truth that plastic chest protector might help a bit... for those who are looking for an easy way out. It is strangeto see how some people just forgot about the idea of fencing, when some of us put in hundreds of hours in the gym in order to improve and pursue this passion... I'm sure that none of the top fencers will be using this thing at the next World Cup... not even Loric Attely (sorry for the low blow!)

Plastic protector won't help you, but hard training will.

[cfaustus]

Look, cfaustus has made it abundantly clear by his posts that he has never really fenced in any tough sort of competition. No fencer in his right mind is going to analyze whether he's hitting with a "three-finger bend" and that the hit is 90 degrees to the target. All competitive fencers just stick the blade out and hit. The training during lessons drill the feel and the motion into the muscles so that such esoterica are ignored during the bouting.

Ignoring the ad hominem statement, it was simply a question. If a hit made as I described is not registering then this is a HUGE problem. Of course it would be ridiculous to ask fencers to make exclusively such a limited hit in competition. However, the hit I describe is one which can, I believe, be recognized by all of us as a solid hit with the only ambiguity which might occur being from the cloth of the fencer's jacket or any under-protection the fencer might be wearing. And as for competative fencers just sticking their blades out and hitting, you are doing a grave amount of injustice to the skillful placements of point executed by many 'top competators'.

[downunder]

Ignoring the ad hominem statement, it was simply a question. If a hit made as I described is not registering then this is a HUGE problem. Of course it would be ridiculous to ask fencers to make exclusively such a limited hit in competition. However, the hit I describe is one which can, I believe, be recognized by all of us as a solid hit with the only ambiguity which might occur being from the cloth of the fencer's jacket or any under-protection the fencer might be wearing. And as for competative fencers just sticking their blades out and hitting, you are doing a grave amount of injustice to the skillful placements of point executed by many 'top competators'.

there are several reasons why straight thrust lights may not come on:

1: it may simply bounce off, and not be depressed for the amount of time needed, this is what we are discussing with regard to the chest plate
2: the excess bend in the blade may cause the poorly insulated blade to come into contact with the lame within the 15ms, thus making the hit invalid. It is essential to have your blade taped properly at all times.
3: It is also potentially possible to have such an extreme bend in the blade within that 15ms that the tip becomes flat, and no longer depressed.

[grotto]

Look, cfaustus has made it abundantly clear by his posts that he has never really fenced in any tough sort of competition. No fencer in his right mind is going to analyze whether he's hitting with a "three-finger bend" and that the hit is 90 degrees to the target. All competitive fencers just stick the blade out and hit. The training during lessons drill the feel and the motion into the muscles so that such esoterica are ignored during the bouting.

I agree that "during competitive fencing" no fencer is going to really analyze the "three finger bend" or "approx 90 degrees", but fencers do this instintively already, hell the flick does exactly that, it brings the Point down perpendicular to the target. I was commenting (obviously poorly) on the fact folks are mainly griping about this new wrinkle in the foil game, and when someone brings a "valid solution" essentially using angulation to set the point it is dismissed because it is old school. It is One of many possible ways to counteract the "chest protector", defence hell epeeists have had to do this all along.

[Insipiens]

there are several reasons why straight thrust lights may not come on:

1: it may simply bounce off, and not be depressed for the amount of time needed, this is what we are discussing with regard to the chest plate

and from experience on the new timings at foil (downunder has probably reffed enough to observe this as well) a lot of straight thrusts that look like "good" hits do not come up. The breastplates seem to make quite a big difference to this.