Where do you draw your aggression from?

[mithrandir]

You know that quote by Nadi? “Competition calls for psychological qualities which the average girl simply cannot possess.”
Well, what if he was right? For me, anyway. I have no winning brass.
My latest (and second) competition was where this realization began. Two of the coaches approached me separately, one urging me that what I needed was to be “aggressive” and “tough,” just like Said Fencer who just one won a gold. The other encouraged me to “be first!” as in, don’t wait, attack while you can see it coming, etc.
I couldn’t. I’m far too placid. Pacifistic.
In bouts after that, I found that it's difficult for me to establish a strong, 'loud,' obvious attack, something that intimidates or even frightens.

Fencing interests me because there is a lot of soul searching. I love the physical control, the perfect execution of deadly movements at lightning speed, and the psychological ‘threads’ that bind fencers to each other.
But at the end of the day, direct elimination time, I’m down 5 points and I’m exhausted. I have nothing to draw from. No primal urge to win at all costs. My opponent is obviously more talented that I am, I’ve done all I can. I accept defeat happily, walking away with a good lesson and a will to improve.
Unlike others. There’s something about them. In the cases of those who could care less for the subtleties of control, they still fight with impressive strength, even stronger as they know they are about to lose. Why? They want to win. Win win win. Losing, being a Loser, is out of the question. Unacceptable.

Yeah, I don’t have that. No desire to “win,” only to better my skills. If winning happens to be a product of that, fine with me. It’s just not my goal.
Unlike the orphaned heroes of Hollywood, I have no explosive rage to channel at the murderer(s) of my parents. Most of my opponents are my friends, people I like and admire, or in the case of those who I don’t know, I have a considerable amount of respect for.

And so, since I don’t possess this “fire,” this burning blaze of competitive spirit which I can see positively radiating from others—like my coach… What am I to do? Is there such a thing as a passive fencer? Can I really perfect my skills without winning at all? Or am I “consigned to the dumpster of history,” left behind as someone who never possessed the passion or the drive to go that extra step? An “average girl?”
How can I possibly become adequately spurred to a desire to crush my opponents into a thousand pieces?
An internal source of “brass” is all I’ve got—but “Do your best” isn’t terribly inspiring. Would “Don’t shame your school!” work better?

What about you? Is winning an integral part of your game? Where do you draw your aggressive/competitive spirit from?

[Soldier]

For the vast majority of the time that I fenced, I basically hated my life. Kind of like I do again now. But that's another story.

In any case, I was usually in a bad mood. Those aren't hard to turn into a lot of anger. Anger is a fuel. My state of mind in most serious bouts was something close to homicidal.

It works, but I don't think I'd recommend that approach.

And not wanting to win at all costs isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, if you practice really hard and get extremely good, then your victories will appear to have been earned with ease. Always impressive.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I draw my anger from problems at home and with my family. I also draw anger from heavy metal music, like metallica or linkin park. But I have a feeling that you have enough friends telling you to listen to heavy metal. Your words are so poetic, I imagine that such music hurts your ears.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

I try to treat every point like it's the difference between winning and losing, regardless of what the score is.

My coach once told me, it's about hating losing, but not being afraid of it.

[mithrandir]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

I draw my anger from problems at home and with my family. I also draw anger from heavy metal music, like metallica or linkin park. But I have a feeling that you have enough friends telling you to listen to heavy metal. Your words are so poetic, I imagine that such music hurts your ears.

I like the occasional heavy metal But anger, I dunno, it's something that wears me out more than it energizes.

[ThornOfTheBlood]

I never really thought much of competition until this past weekend until I went to my first, and I realized that I was completly driven, when I was exhausted, such like I have never been before, I pushed it aside, and I won, and I came out of my pools 4th. DEs are where your thinking begins, if you can get out of the pools, and into the 15 point DE bouts, that's where individuality shines, 5 points is nothing, you barely begin to comprehend your opponent at 5 points. Perfecting your skills without winning? Yes, that is, to a certain degree. But for most people(excluding myself) winning is a drive that makes people fence, sure, for me it is to, but that's not why I fence, I don't know why exactly, fencing is ME, it's who I am. Just fence extremly good people, and drill yourself (drills, like...footwork drills, not working yourself to the bone). Nadi was a very very very biased person who was the prime image of what a man should believe in, in that TIME period, but not anymore. It's not so much girl or boy, but what drives you, your reason for doing it.

[ThornOfTheBlood]

Hadouken, Linkin Park, and Metallica, are in NO WAY heavy metal. They sing classical compared to some of the bands my brother listens to. I listen to mainly old 80 and before rock music, but some bands, like greenday and linkin park, and they are in no way heavy metal of today's standards.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by mithrandir

You know that quote by Nadi? “Competition calls for psychological qualities which the average girl simply cannot possess.”


What about you? Is winning an integral part of your game? Where do you draw your aggressive/competitive spirit from?

Though I am now a competitive fencer, I started out as a rec fencer. The majority of my fencing has been spent as a rec fencer. The majority of fencers probably fence for fun. For every 1 member of the USFA, there are probably 10 nonmember fencers or more.

There is nothing wrong with fencing just to fence. I also don't see a problem with fencing to win. For me, I fence to win. It's not the only objective, just an overall indicator of progression.

When I compete, I have two objectives:

1) Have fun
2) win

Since winning is fun... well, you can draw your own circular logic.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by mithrandir

What about you? Is winning an integral part of your game? Where do you draw your aggressive/competitive spirit from?

It's all about goals.

I want to win. I hate to lose. I can't stand it. Not one bit. I'll do whatever it takes (within the rules) to not lose. I'll practice everyday until exhaustion, I'll work out. I'll fight when I'm down by a seemingly insurmountable number of points.

It's not anger, but emotional content. I want to hit the other guy. Badly.

As I see it skills in fencing are like words. One can have a big vocabulary, but it's not as useful if one has nothing to say. Whereas one can make up for the lack of a vocabulary by speaking simply, and with a very powerful message.

Having a perfect disengage is great. Knowing when to use it, and wanting to hit with it are just as, if not more important.

So, you can improve your skill in fencing without that desire. You will, however never get past a certain point.

This can be worked on through mental training, and if you're interested in becoming a competitor you should. It's not easy. It's the hardest thing to learn.

Whichever path you choose, good luck.

[Black Jeebus]

Originally Posted by ThornOfTheBlood

Hadouken, Linkin Park, and Metallica, are in NO WAY heavy metal. They sing classical compared to some of the bands my brother listens to. I listen to mainly old 80 and before rock music, but some bands, like greenday and linkin park, and they are in no way heavy metal of today's standards.

Agreed. Go pick up Meshuggah, or Hatebreed. And those are heavy lite. The stuff like Dillinger Escape Plan that has no harmony though...that stuff is not so good IMO.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by ThornOfTheBlood

Hadouken, Linkin Park, and Metallica, are in NO WAY heavy metal. They sing classical compared to some of the bands my brother listens to. I listen to mainly old 80 and before rock music, but some bands, like greenday and linkin park, and they are in no way heavy metal of today's standards.

How about drowning pool?

[mithrandir]

Originally Posted by achilleus

It's all about goals.

I want to win. I hate to lose. I can't stand it. Not one bit. I'll do whatever it takes (within the rules) to not lose. I'll practice everyday until exhaustion, I'll work out. I'll fight when I'm down by a seemingly insurmountable number of points.

It's not anger, but emotional content. I want to hit the other guy. Badly.

As I see it skills in fencing are like words. One can have a big vocabulary, but it's not as useful if one has nothing to say. Whereas one can make up for the lack of a vocabulary by speaking simply, and with a very powerful message.

Having a perfect disengage is great. Knowing when to use it, and wanting to hit with it are just as, if not more important.

So, you can improve your skill in fencing without that desire. You will, however never get past a certain point.

This can be worked on through mental training, and if you're interested in becoming a competitor you should. It's not easy. It's the hardest thing to learn.

Whichever path you choose, good luck.

I really like your vocabulary analogy! I have a new perspective...

I was hoping you wouldn't say that I won't get past a certain point without a desire to win... but I admit that deep down I expected it.

I want a desire,
but I can't seem to find it.
I've lost so many times at so many different things, that I've been trained to treat winning as nothing, for the simple reason that I wouldn't fall so hard if I never reached for the pedestal in the first place.
But I think I'm beginning to see that maybe a desire to win is in everyone... maybe I've just repressed it too much out of fear.

Thanks for your insight,
Everyone!

[Thorin]

achilleus has some good points, to that I'd like to add:

There's lots of difrent types of skills to work on in fencing. It sounds like you're stuck only on technique.

Technique is how well you do an individual action. That can be anything from beat-straight w/ lunge or all the way to parry 6, high 7, then riposte with a 1-2, coupe flick to the 8 line. One is obviously more difficult than the other, but knowing how to execute those actions in a controlled and accurate manner while important are only part of what fencing is. For someone who is realaxed, balanced & ready even the second complex action I described isn't hard. You just put the pieces together.

If two fencers were always relaxed, ready & on balance & always chose the right action to do, nobody would ever score. Fencing is all about taking advantage of your opponents mistakes. However if you wait around for them to voulentarily make a mistake, you could be there a while and end up getting scored on a lot in turn. You have to create your own opportunities to score by making them make mistakes. How? Put them under pressure & see where thier fencing breaks down.

That's really what most fencing is about, both people are trying to out-pressure each other & use that to thier advantage. I've heard my coach & others say this too, that once you get to the point where you're actually attempting to score by [INSERT TECHNIQUE HERE] then fencing is over. It's all about the moment leading up to the action, the technique is really the easy part, the hard part is creating the moment where your technique will actually work.

You said you love the physical control, that's a huge part of fencing. Can you put pressure on your opponent to create opportunities while remaning relaxed, ready & on balance?

For me agression doesn't work (though I know it does for a lot of people) I get tense when I'm angry which ruins my fencing. For me creating pressure is about moving them around, controlling the distance, & tempo & doing unexpected actions. Part of that is taking the initiative in the attack a lot, it's not about agression when I come off the line go to make an immediate attack, it's purely a tactical consideration. By doing actions like that, you'll create opportinities for yourself later. By scoring on them when they're not ready you change the feel of the bout, you can put them on the defensive. By being persistant you give them less time to think (you too, but you can go out there with that plan in mind so you've already done the thinking you need to do) All these elements is what make an exciting bout, otherwise you'll always have too few chances to use your perfect techniques to win.

So I guess my advice would be to try fencing at a more stratigic level for a while -- create a plan for a bout so you always know what you're going to do next (offense, defense? ) Then do it w/out hesitation until you open up that opportunity to apply your technique & score.

[mithrandir]

Originally Posted by ThornOfTheBlood

I never really thought much of competition until this past weekend until I went to my first, and I realized that I was completly driven, when I was exhausted, such like I have never been before, I pushed it aside, and I won, and I came out of my pools 4th. DEs are where your thinking begins, if you can get out of the pools, and into the 15 point DE bouts, that's where individuality shines, 5 points is nothing, you barely begin to comprehend your opponent at 5 points. Perfecting your skills without winning? Yes, that is, to a certain degree. But for most people(excluding myself) winning is a drive that makes people fence, sure, for me it is to, but that's not why I fence, I don't know why exactly, fencing is ME, it's who I am. Just fence extremly good people, and drill yourself (drills, like...footwork drills, not working yourself to the bone). Nadi was a very very very biased person who was the prime image of what a man should believe in, in that TIME period, but not anymore. It's not so much girl or boy, but what drives you, your reason for doing it.

I know what you mean about fencing being "you." It is me. So much that my love of it doesn't suffer a scratch if I lose 15 to nothing. It's so powerful that little things like winning don't affect it at all. It's the big picture that counts.
But part of me wants to prove to my coaches and peers etc. how serious I am about all of it. Maybe even to myself. Some kind of proof that I really am doing better. And the only tangible proof seems to be physical excellence. To a certain degree yes I can come out of a terrible loss and say "Wow I'm really proud of how I fenced today, I've never done better." but there is still a part that whines "Then why didn't you WIN?"

In general, the satisfaction with effort overpowers. But if I'm satisfied, there is no push to go further, attack harder, be tougher, more aggressive?
Yet if I refuse to be satisfied with progress without domination, will I ever be happy?

Well, I know One thing. I will take your advice: more challenging fencing, more drills. My two lovers

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by mithrandir

maybe I've just repressed it too much out of fear.

This may be a big part as well.

I admit I have a fear of winning. Losing is easier. Once you lose your DE then the competition is over, you can relax go home & don't have to face any more opponents who are trying to crush you.

Winning tends to create expetations of more winning, and the higher level that you loose at the more you have "riding on it" so you may feel like you've made a bigger mistake.

I don't exactly the know the answer to this one though. For me it's about emphasising my success & not dwelling on the failures. Focus on the *solutions* to your mistakes & phrase them as a positive instead of telling yourself what you're doing wrong. Otherwise it's too easy to focus on that.

[mithrandir]

Originally Posted by Thorin

achilleus has some good points, to that I'd like to add:

There's lots of difrent types of skills to work on in fencing. It sounds like you're stuck only on technique.

Technique is how well you do an individual action. That can be anything from beat-straight w/ lunge or all the way to parry 6, high 7, then riposte with a 1-2, coupe flick to the 8 line. One is obviously more difficult than the other, but knowing how to execute those actions in a controlled and accurate manner while important are only part of what fencing is. For someone who is realaxed, balanced & ready even the second complex action I described isn't hard. You just put the pieces together.

If two fencers were always relaxed, ready & on balance & always chose the right action to do, nobody would ever score. Fencing is all about taking advantage of your opponents mistakes. However if you wait around for them to voulentarily make a mistake, you could be there a while and end up getting scored on a lot in turn. You have to create your own opportunities to score by making them make mistakes. How? Put them under pressure & see where thier fencing breaks down.

That's really what most fencing is about, both people are trying to out-pressure each other & use that to thier advantage. I've heard my coach & others say this too, that once you get to the point where you're actually attempting to score by [INSERT TECHNIQUE HERE] then fencing is over. It's all about the moment leading up to the action, the technique is really the easy part, the hard part is creating the moment where your technique will actually work.

You said you love the physical control, that's a huge part of fencing. Can you put pressure on your opponent to create opportunities while remaning relaxed, ready & on balance?

For me agression doesn't work (though I know it does for a lot of people) I get tense when I'm angry which ruins my fencing. For me creating pressure is about moving them around, controlling the distance, & tempo & doing unexpected actions. Part of that is taking the initiative in the attack a lot, it's not about agression when I come off the line go to make an immediate attack, it's purely a tactical consideration. By doing actions like that, you'll create opportinities for yourself later. By scoring on them when they're not ready you change the feel of the bout, you can put them on the defensive. By being persistant you give them less time to think (you too, but you can go out there with that plan in mind so you've already done the thinking you need to do) All these elements is what make an exciting bout, otherwise you'll always have too few chances to use your perfect techniques to win.

So I guess my advice would be to try fencing at a more stratigic level for a while -- create a plan for a bout so you always know what you're going to do next (offense, defense? ) Then do it w/out hesitation until you open up that opportunity to apply your technique & score.

Ah yes.
This is where I become terribly flawed: When I do an unexpected action, an attempt to throw something out there, see how they react, I don't pull through with it. I panic. Their reaction to me is as unforeseen as my attack is to them.
I guess if I pulled it at a safe distance it would work better, but then I worry that if I try it a second time (after it works of course) at a closer distance, they'll see it coming, recognizing it. So I try something else. All this makes for flighty feints that can be easily countered, and a pretty good guarantee that any attacks initiated by me won't go through. Whatever original advantage I had in spontaneity becomes a laughable predictability.

To be honest, I'm sure I could put pressure on my opponent to create opportunities while remaning relaxed, ready & on balance. But having an aggressive enough state of mind to actually take that opportunity... I really don't know.

(You have been an incredible help, thank you so much!)

[mithrandir]

Originally Posted by Thorin

This may be a big part as well.

I admit I have a fear of winning. Losing is easier. Once you lose your DE then the competition is over, you can relax go home & don't have to face any more opponents who are trying to crush you.

Winning tends to create expetations of more winning, and the higher level that you loose at the more you have "riding on it" so you may feel like you've made a bigger mistake.

I don't exactly the know the answer to this one though. For me it's about emphasising my success & not dwelling on the failures. Focus on the *solutions* to your mistakes & phrase them as a positive instead of telling yourself what you're doing wrong. Otherwise it's too easy to focus on that.

It is very easy. I started a notebook when I first started fencing, where I wrote down the things I needed to work on. But eventually it became overwhelming, so many little things that needed fixing added on every time!
Now I record the things that I am doing well first, the things that I've improved on or notice are particularly well-performed. At least this sense of accomplishment makes it easier to feel like I'm going uphill instead of down!

[S. Hunter]

Bleh, I know the feeling. Its not about aggression - And its not about winning. Eventually if you focus on your form, winning will become a nonissue. I'm still waiting for it, but I have many friends who express this regularly. My best friend fenced for two years without caring about tournaments or winning, and last week he went from U to D. Go figure. Just keep having fun, and you will win some and lose some. If its not in your nature to be agressive then you wont be, really this sport it about you and what you want, so do what you want to do. If its winning, then try, if its having fun, then do that. As long as you fence you will improve - And fencing is the important part.

[mithrandir]

aw wow you are a comfort..

thank you for pulling (gently!) my feet back to the ground.
You're very right. Fencing is the most important part.

[cowpaste]

I draw my anger from all the girls who ever laughed at me! Damn you!!!