you can wing a good offense...

[SwordSoul]

what do you think?

[noodle]

ummm.... yes?

[SwordSoul]

i are be an retarded. yes please keep this poll in case it was read wrong... holy crap i suck at links and stuff like that Lololol

anywho, yes, please discuss if you like, I was basically thinking about something my coach said and wondered if anyone had a case for emphasizing practicing the attack as much or more than defense or is it more tactical or technique focus yadayadayada. Yeah it's pretty broad but i wonder what people have to say in general. okay bye.

[Grasshopper]

Winging it is part of good fencing, offense and defense.

[sabreur]

What Grasshopper said, with the caveat that the trick to successful creativity is often limiting the options. So the prerequisite to "winging it" is setting up a situation with a limited number of outcomes.

MR

[ThornOfTheBlood]

Defense IMO, should take priority(haha) over attack. The only way you can do even decent with poor defense is epee where you double out, or get the occasional lunge, but then if you get fleched, then POW your done. I didn't intentionally start doing def. before offense when I started, but it ended up that way and now I'm happy it was like that.

[sabreur]

Defense IMO, should take priority(haha) over attack. The only way you can do even decent with poor defense is epee where you double out, or get the occasional lunge, but then if you get fleched, then POW your done. I didn't intentionally start doing def. before offense when I started, but it ended up that way and now I'm happy it was like that.

That may be true for epee, but the exact opposite is true for sabre--the attack wins the point 70-80 percent of the time.

I would think that in foil, with the way they call time, the percentage is similar.

MR

[grotto]

The best defence is a good offence. Practicing evasions, binds, crosses etc, allow you to control your opponents reactions. Having all this in your arsenal then allows you to set up second, third intention shots where you effectively create your opponents reactions and score. My coach had this disconcerting way of controling her opponents (she would lean over and tell me how she was going to hit and on which tempo... )

[Zara_athlen]

I guess you can always come in swinging But in reality I dont think in fencing you can really wing either

[ZenEpeeist]

Is the offense or counteroffense better in epee: Yes. Depends on who you are fencing.

--ZenTheImp

[ZenEpeeist]

Wing it definitely. Some of the best hits you can make are totally unplanned.

--ZenTheImp

[achilleus]

I think there's a big difference between winging it and improvising.

Improvisation and creativity are keys to successful fencing. Winging it, works if your much better than your opponent, but gets you nowhere against competent fencers.

[FoilyGeezer]

I think there's a big difference between winging it and improvising.

Improvisation and creativity are keys to successful fencing. Winging it, works if your much better than your opponent, but gets you nowhere against competent fencers.

Spot on! I've seen good fencers destroyed because they couldn't shift gears and stop doing the same stuff over and over again. When stuff doesn't work, you need to figure out what will, not do the same stuff over and over again hoping your opponent will suddenly develop amnesia and forget that they scored against that tactic several times already.

Winging it (as in randomly doing stuff without really thinking it through) is limited in its effectiveness as when you do something that works you want to be on top of it enough to be able to duplicate it (at least until it stops working).

[drippingwet]

What's winging?

[ZenEpeeist]

I was taking "winging it" to mean "improvising".

Seems like the difference is just the level of skill. Beginners who are trying to improvise might look like they are "winging it" because they don't have the fencing "programming" of somebody who's been training and fencing for a while.

Regardless, I think that they should attempt to improvise. It will help them develop their creativity later. Who cares if they get hit trying?

--ZenTheImp.

[mrbiggs]

I don't think I ever improvise an attack, really.

Before every touch, I set up my options; what works, what doesn't against a specific opponent. If I am forced to think quickly, such as after a parry, I just choose the best of those options. (Actually, I usually just flick to chest, which is a VERY bad habit I have, but that's another story...)

[SwordSoul]

interesting conversation, guys! I think that that's basically what my coach meant when he said the above statement. I also think that at the time, he was really trying to get me to emphasize making my defense much tighter than it was--also, I was still getting used to the concept of marching attacks when I heard this. Basically, i think he was emphasizing that often the marching attack relies on my mistake. It's like I don't know where you're going to hit me because you don't know where you're going to hit me yet, so by having a tight defense, or "controlling" the action even though I'm on defense, I can feign a decision point or just be conscious of the options I intentially give him. It was an interesting way to look at the march.

[achilleus]

interesting conversation, guys! I think that that's basically what my coach meant when he said the above statement. I also think that at the time, he was really trying to get me to emphasize making my defense much tighter than it was--also, I was still getting used to the concept of marching attacks when I heard this. Basically, i think he was emphasizing that often the marching attack relies on my mistake. It's like I don't know where you're going to hit me because you don't know where you're going to hit me yet, so by having a tight defense, or "controlling" the action even though I'm on defense, I can feign a decision point or just be conscious of the options I intentially give him. It was an interesting way to look at the march.

I don't know what your coach meant by winging it. I can tell you that offense has a distinct advantage over defense if foil. The person on defense is reacting to what the offensive fencer is doing. As such, the defender is always a split second behind and thus is much more difficult to score with. It's especially noticeable during the marching attack, where if the defender reacts without thinking or with poor technique, the defender is hit.

Perhaps your coach was trying to get this point across?

[jBirch]

I think there is a bit of miscommunication going on here. Defense and Offense are merely who initiates the action. Winging it and improvisation are adaptability to changing circumstances. Controlling and being controlled are the key to winning.

You can have a defensive strategy (counter-attack, parry-riposte) and still control your opponent and thus win the point. You can have an offensive strategy (attack, AIP, remise, fleche, etc...) and control your opponent and thus win the point. It is the controlling that is important, not really whether you are attacking or defending. Granted, it is easier to control your opponent if you are also dominating distance, which is generally an offensive game. What your coach may have been trying to tell you was to dictate the action to your opponent rather then react to their dictations to you. You need to set them up and then take them down. "Winging it" in this context is merely reacting without a plan, rather then improvising to opportunity. You essentially cede control to your opponent and are doomed to death. *grin*

Hope this helps.

[SwordSoul]

I got somehow got caught in a "it's more important to not get hit" mode for some reason a while back. Revisiting the topic here on the boards. Again, good conversation--incidentally i'm curious: advice for training for the march? I'll admit it was terrifying doing it at a tournament for the first time, not only because i wasn't sure the director would give me a bent-arm attack, and because it felt really wierd, like i didnt' trust it myself. I'm a lot more comfortable now of course, but I've never really been able to find good partner drills aside from just improvising (it's hard to train a decision point don't you think?) or freebouting/ experimenting on strip. I feel a lot more comfortable defending against a march (oddly enough) than I am executing one against someone who i know can defend against it well--i.e. a "higher rated" fencer.


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