What does everyone pay in dues?

[ZenEpeeist]

It ain't about the money...it's about the fencing...

--ZenTheImp

[Larrison]

Adult (18 or over) Quarterly $120 or Annual $440
Youth/Student (under 18 or student with ID) Quarterly $105 or Annual $385

Or Nightly Floor Fee (good only for night of payment) $7

Private lessons are additional...

[Jvanhousen]

Originally Posted by ZenEpeeist

It ain't about the money...it's about the fencing...

--ZenTheImp

Right,
Or as the song goes:
"It ain't me that needs the money, just the people that I owe."

[duel mom]

The prices are all over the universe. You can't compare college fencing to private club fencing fees. Colleges are subsidized. Private clubs never post fees on their webpages. And the services or learning opportunities are also inconsistent from club to club. I find it confusing and I can't tell if I'm being taken to the cleaners.

The proper question should be: What should I expect from a private fencing club charging (whatever amount). Let's list criteria, or must haves.

[mifencer]

Besides blood, sweat, and tears?

Seriously, sounds like your frustrated and unhappy. Do yourself a favor and switch. What's the worse thing that could happen? You'd still be frustrated and unhappy. The best thing? You'd be satisfied and happy.

Good luck.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by duel mom

The prices are all over the universe. You can't compare college fencing to private club fencing fees. Colleges are subsidized. Private clubs never post fees on their webpages. And the services or learning opportunities are also inconsistent from club to club. I find it confusing and I can't tell if I'm being taken to the cleaners.

The proper question should be: What should I expect from a private fencing club charging (whatever amount). Let's list criteria, or must haves.

It depends on the club. Some "private club" are adhoc estabilishments with on-the-fly coaching in a park district gym. Some are very stable with excellent programs and top-notch coaches in their own facility, and there are clubs all inbetween those two examples. Some clubs do give pricing, and some do not. I perfer those that do, and if negotiating is necessary and possible, you at least have somewhere to start with.

The two clubs I fence at have the same basic premise:
1. Meet in a park district facility at the SAME time and SAME location (stability).
2. Have a RELIABLE coach that is there all the time to provide: footwork session and lessons.
3. Electronic scoring equipment access for members.

Since these two clubs only meet three times per week respectively, for about 2 or 3 hours per session, members have limited access to the facility and the coaches, therefore membership fees should be more in the "shoe string" mentality.

As for colleges, I can't respond to that.

[ZenEpeeist]

Right,
Or as the song goes:
"It ain't me that needs the money, just the people that I owe."

Been there, done that, currently in the red because I refuse to charge too much to fencers in the club...only to the tune of a couple hundred, though.

--ZenTheImp

[duel mom]

no,no mifencer not unhappy. Just frustrated with the difficulty of comparing club pricing. The thread is rather unhelpful because as scarlet woman said clubs run the gamut with facility and coach quality. Very difficult to quantify but I wish I had a better feel for the costs. Achieving that may be impossible because of the nature of the differences.

[fluidfencer]

Prices are really not all over the place if you are comparing apples and apples. "Oiuyt" stated $65/month and $25/lesson. Our club did tons of research trying to establish a fair price, looking at clubs with similar characteristics... high level coaching, operate their own facility. There are dozens like that. Ours are $60/month and $25/lessons. Our complete fee schedule is on line, as are most clubs.
http://www.fencingclub.org

Originally Posted by duel mom

The prices are all over the universe. You can't compare college fencing to private club fencing fees. Colleges are subsidized. Private clubs never post fees on their webpages. And the services or learning opportunities are also inconsistent from club to club. I find it confusing and I can't tell if I'm being taken to the cleaners.

The proper question should be: What should I expect from a private fencing club charging (whatever amount). Let's list criteria, or must haves.

[ZenEpeeist]

Duel Mom.

Several things affect price.

Coaching. <--How many coaches, what level.

Location. <--How much is the cost of the facility. Do they own their own facitlity which cost a lot?

Web Hosting.

Gear. <--This is a big one because fencing gear is expensive. What is the club's goals in terms of buying and maintaining gear, especially scoring machines. Do they already have plenty of equipment?

Extra. How much are they adding on the top for their future plans. This one is hard to exstimate.

Insurance. Insurance costs a bit of money through the USFA.

Taking these into account, you can do some math and find out if your are being dealt a resonably fair price. I would recommend going to the place with the best coach, or the coach that is most suited to your needs and personality if money is no object.

[RandomFence]

This is about the information I'm looking for. This is good comparative data even though I neglected to ask for specifics such as available coaching.

Right now I'm looking at my own situation. $1100 a year for twice a week practice (1½-2 hours that have been a little weak), paying extra for all lessons and event coaching, 1 coach who is a great coach. Down side is that our facilities suck, I've never seen any new equipment show up, and the club has a core membership of maybe 10 members. No growth because people leave as others come in.

I personally think the cost is prohibitive; both to new/potential members and retention of current ones. I'm a fully employed adult, but even I'll balk at $1000 a year unless the club is something outstanding and huge.

Please keep the input coming.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by ZenEpeeist

I would recommend going to the place with the best coach, or the coach that is most suited to your needs and personality if money is no object.

This is what it basically comes down to, what are your needs, Duel Mom? Do you want to be a champion or a recreational fencer (or your child)? What do you hope to accomplish? The "big joint" in chi-town (meaning, the most expensive club) has its own facility that's open all week and good to great coaches, with lots of added benefits. But in my calculations, I realized I'm getting the same quality training by going to two other "lesser quality" (some of the "lesser" quality is based only on perception, not reality) and saving some money in the process, plus I don't have to go downtown...I hate downtown.

However, a club that's open all week does attract better coaching staff as they can get a more stable job coaching, you're just going to have to pay more for it. My club's coaches all have other jobs or other fencing gigs during the week. Not that my coach is somehow less of a coach than that of the "big joint," but my coach actually has an ethical problem charging high prices, plus my coach's situation allows her to pick and choose how she goes about coaching (aka freedom). So, my coach chooses to make her primary digs at my club (lucky for me ).

There are lots of variables, so you need to try some of the clubs out and ask lots of questions. Observe. Happy and friendly fencers/team-like atmosphere can say a lot about a place and its staff. Check out results. I know "winning isn't everything," but if a coach has a good system of teaching, students will naturally (obviously they need to put in effort) progress and not stagnate.

Stagnation is a four letter word in my vocabulary.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by RandomFence

This is about the information I'm looking for. This is good comparative data even though I neglected to ask for specifics such as available coaching.

Right now I'm looking at my own situation. $1100 a year for twice a week practice (1½-2 hours that have been a little weak), paying extra for all lessons and event coaching, 1 coach who is a great coach. Down side is that our facilities suck, I've never seen any new equipment show up, and the club has a core membership of maybe 10 members. No growth because people leave as others come in.

I personally think the cost is prohibitive; both to new/potential members and retention of current ones. I'm a fully employed adult, but even I'll balk at $1000 a year unless the club is something outstanding and huge.

Please keep the input coming.

I'm really lucky in the respect that I don't technically pay for competition coaching. Do other people pay for it? If so, how much? Is it in the price, a la carte? Actually, what me and my team members do will get hotel rooms/cars, etc. and then our coach just is with us during that time and she doesn't pay for it. It really is a team. We will also pay for some of our coach's meals. Anything else my coach writes off.

I guess my coach wants us to be spending our money on competing, the more money I've got to compete, the more I can compete. The more I can compete, the more chances to win and make my coach look good.

[R. Exnicios]

Tulane University: Students, $40 per semester, non-students $150 per semester (Lesson & some equipment included)

New Orleans Fencing Academy: Beginners $200 per semester equipment and lessons included, Advanced Fencers $150 per semester lesson included

Both clubs meet twice a week plus Saturdays and include private lessons once a week. Both club set up 3-4 electric strips

Good thread

Cheers

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by scarlet_woman156k

But in my calculations, I realized I'm getting the same quality training by going to two other "lesser quality" (some of the "lesser" quality is based only on perception, not reality) and saving some money in the process...

That's a good point. More money doesn't necessarily mean more instruction or better coaching.

Originally Posted by scarlet_woman156k

but my coach actually has an ethical problem charging high prices...

That's interesting, I also take lessons from somebody like this. He doesn't charge anything and he's really a good coach. Since I learned this way, I am hesitant to charge much at all.

Originally Posted by scarlet_woman156k

Happy and friendly fencers/team-like atmosphere can say a lot about a place and its staff.

Also good point. Half of the challenge is learning fencing, the other half is having enough fun to stick with it for long enough to see the improvement. Thus the more people enjoy the fencing, the better they'll get and the less they'll get discouraged and quit.

--ZenTheImp

On a side note...

Scarlet fencer, are you going to the Reminyak in October? My wife and I and a few of our friends will probably be there on Sunday.

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by RandomFence

Right now I'm looking at my own situation. $1100 a year for twice a week practice (1½-2 hours that have been a little weak), paying extra for all lessons and event coaching, 1 coach who is a great coach. Down side is that our facilities suck, I've never seen any new equipment show up, and the club has a core membership of maybe 10 members. No growth because people leave as others come in.

I personally think the cost is prohibitive; both to new/potential members and retention of current ones. I'm a fully employed adult, but even I'll balk at $1000 a year unless the club is something outstanding and huge.

RadomFence...I've actually seen worse. Imagine $1000 a year for one night a week for "non sport" fencing (not going to tournaments...it's actually discouraged) and only minimal club gear.

Sad thing is that nobody who joins knows any better...

--ZenTheImp

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by ZenEpeeist

On a side note...

Scarlet fencer, are you going to the Reminyak in October? My wife and I and a few of our friends will probably be there on Sunday.

All I have to do is roll out of bed and show up since NWU is all of 5 minutes from me, so, yes. However, whether or not I compete in the men's event with a registration time of 7:45 a.m. is yet to be seen.

[gladius]

I understand the frustration and bewilderment of any parent getting involved in fencing in the US. This is in my opinion one of the major handicaps for this sport to become popular and have the success of other sports which attract large audiences and followers.

I fault for this the USFA for taking a laissez faire attitude regarding the coaching qualifications, i.e., who can be a coach, fencing master or whatever you want to call him/her. In the US, anyone can start up a program, calling it anyway he wants, making false promises, and ripping uninformed parents off in the process. In France, Italy, and other European countries which are at the forefront of world fencing, before becoming a fencing coach and being allowed to teach, you must be certified and pass a rigorous exam. Without it, the club would be in breach of the law, like trying to start a flying school without certified instructors.

Costs

Always ask the cost of what? Reading the various postings in this thread nobody explains what a lesson is like, i.e., how long does a private lesson last and what is the fee? $25 for 1 hour or for 15 minutes? Given by whom, a certified instructor or just another fencer? Given to one individual, two, or more?

There are similar costs for any sport activity practiced in a gym. They appear to be standard and range between $40 and $80 per month, many requiring an initiation fee of few hundred dollars at the beginning. Other benefits are included, like spa's saunas, exercise rooms, pool, etc., depending on the facilities. Translation: between $500 and $1000 per year. Fencing goes on top of this with rental of equipment (if needed) and lessons (general and individual).

If you want to compete, the Pandora's box of coaching fees opens up for the uninformed parent, plus, naturally, traveling/lodging/meals when out of town and tournaments registrations. It gets expensive pretty quickly.

But the question remains what are acceptable ranges for the various charges? Let's talk about coaching fees. It used to be that the coach/es accompanying your kids would divide their expenses (travel, hotel, meals) by the number of kids going to a meet. The higher the number of competitors, the lower the unit fee. Since going anywhere costs between $500 to $1000+ if you had 10 competitors, you faced a coaching fee of around $100 per event. At times, like Summer Nationals which last several days, it could go up to $200.

Then we got exposed to the methods of one operator who has the following philosophy:

1. He was going to the event together with assistant coaches (different weapons) and a large number of fencers (around 30 or more). His fees were based on the charges indicated above, plus a fee per event fenced during the tournament (if you fenced in 3 events the charge was triple), plus the fact that while he was at the event, he was not making money at his salle, so you were charged for this shortfall also! (win-win for him, lose-lose for you)

2. He also had a way to gauge your earning ability by checking the car you drove. Accordingly, a new car or a foreign model commanded a higher fee. All this was done in secret with veiled threats of neglecting your kid if you were to open your mouth and stir troubles with the other parents. The variation in the rates were substantial: 2 events for one was $450, for another $600, and for another $900 and even more for "special" cases. This on top of all your cost for travel, hotel, etc., and the hundreds of $ you were charged on a monthly basis including a base load of 10 private lessons of 15 minutes each which often were not all given.

3. To achieve these financial results this individual felt it was essential to pad his own resume with multiple fraudulent Olympic credentials, false representation of being the Head Coach of a well known local university, and implied promises of scholarships at prestigious universities. All these false claims were his justification for the astronomical fees. And parents who could afford it bought it hook line and sinker. The total annual cost for some elite fencers: $15,000 to $30,000+ per kid.

Clearly this was not what others could accept or tolerate, and they left with some equally disgruntled coaches.

We are now in a much healthier environment and the results of our fencers speak for themselves. But the costs, though substantially lower, are still not negligible if your kid is on competitive fast track. Any event you have to fly to is $500 to $1000, and this is for national events. If you have to include international tournaments and travel, budget between $10000 and $20000 (total yearly budget for your fencing athlete) depending on the number of tournaments.

I am in the middle of this process and this is what I have found out so far. I hope you can learn something from this. If others can teach me what to do for the future, please go ahead. I am always looking forward to learn from others.

[Schiavona]

Let me guess, you live in............Texas?

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by scarlet_woman156k

It depends on the club. Some "private club" are adhoc estabilishments with on-the-fly coaching in a park district gym. Some are very stable with excellent programs and top-notch coaches in their own facility, and there are clubs all inbetween those two examples. Some clubs do give pricing, and some do not. I perfer those that do, and if negotiating is necessary and possible, you at least have somewhere to start with.

The two clubs I fence at have the same basic premise:
1. Meet in a park district facility at the SAME time and SAME location (stability).
2. Have a RELIABLE coach that is there all the time to provide: footwork session and lessons.
3. Electronic scoring equipment access for members.

Since these two clubs only meet three times per week respectively, for about 2 or 3 hours per session, members have limited access to the facility and the coaches, therefore membership fees should be more in the "shoe string" mentality.

As for colleges, I can't respond to that.

Our club falls in the above described catagory. Very recently the Board decided to raise the dues and some members are b!tching about the dues hike. The dues were raised to..........$10 a month! For $120 a year we get 3 sessions a week, 8 hours total, free use of club equipment(we have boxes et al) and a footwork lesson/warmup every session.
I think $10 a month is a deal. One of our juniors played hockey when he was 10. Ice time cost his parents $400 a month! They think fencing is a steal.