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telkanuru · 10-06-2004, 01:31 PM

Sounding a barbaric yawp != screaming? Right.

OffTarget · 10-06-2004, 03:13 PM

Can you attach a sound file? Can't judge a "barbaric yawp" til I hear it.

achilleus · 10-06-2004, 03:17 PM

It amazes me that this topic continues to grow. How many other threads are out there with this same exact discussion? And yet, I find myself compelled to add to it. D@mnation!

Quote:

Originally Posted by S. Hunter

Its not a matter of influencing the ref, really, its a matter of respect for the sport. I believe that its disrepectful to scream, and I will show just as much respect for someone who screams as they show towards me. (I fence, you don't HAVE to scream. Don't. Deal with it.)

It's allowed by the rules, so you're the one that has to deal with it. Not the screamers. Really, it's not disrepectful. In fact, the FIE and many others, feel it's an appropiate display of passion for the sport.

This picture below was taken from Escrime, the FIE mag, with the title as the caption:

Pun · 10-06-2004, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmmmmm....

It's not cheating to tip the balance in your favor. Sure, doing something like taking steroids is cheating, but that's only because you're altering your body, thus giving you a boost over the person who has done just as much training and deserves it more.

But, in baseball, it's not cheating to bat a certain way, or to trick a batter. It's not even cheating to have a different bat. And it's definitely not cheating to contest a call with a ref. Why, therefore, should it be considered cheating to scream to influence a ref's decision? Surely we'd like to see reffing get so good that you wouldn't need to scream, but hey, it ain't gonna happen.

Screaming to influence the ref in your favor is cheating. In baseball you can't swing and miss but yell "YES HOMERUN!!!" at the top of your lungs and expect he ump to believe you, but in fecning you can and thats not fair. When I fenced dry at my old club, it would often come to the ref asking a fencer if they got the hit, if they didn't and they said yes, that is hands down cheating and unsportsman like, so why is yelling to influence the ref different. It's not. Its saying that you got a point even though you know you didn't or you know that it was a simultaneous hit. Its not up to you to decide if you got the hit (unless the judge asks you i.e. the dry fencing thing)it is the refs call. Even if you "think" you got the hit wait for the call and then argue if its not what you "know" happened. If you aren't willing to wait for an uncorrupted call by the ref before you try to change it, you are cheating.

Parries dont tip the refs decsion on a point towards you, they can tip a particular action in your favor, but thats all. That exampe doesn't even apply, to what we're talking about.

SO, yes screaming to influence the ref is cheating. Just the same as is lying about a hit. because thats what your doing.

Screaming in some circumstances is ok, but screaming after every point is for the purpose, direct or in-direct, is cheating.

darius · 10-06-2004, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Screaming to influence the ref in your favor is cheating. In baseball you can't swing and miss but yell "YES HOMERUN!!!" at the top of your lungs and expect he ump to believe you, but in fecning you can and thats not fair.

Can I run for chief of flawed-analogy police?!?

Of course you can swing, miss, and yell "YES HOMERUN!!!" The ump will give you a funny look and say, "Steeeee-rike!!" Same thing with fencing; scream all you want. If it's not your touch, a competent ref won't give it to you, no matter what histrionics you engage in.

Your touch or not, if you want to Lambeau Leap, spike your weapon, moonwalk, do some bootylicious dance routine (unless you're Warren Sapp. Ew.), or waste your breath screaming, feel free. In fact, if you're my opponent, please waste more time and vascular effort on the convincing and celebration phase than you did on the last phrase.

darius

telkanuru · 10-06-2004, 04:29 PM

To simplify: Go ahead and look stupid while I win.

striker · 10-06-2004, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThornOfTheBlood

Today when I went to a tournament, like..50% of everyone if they hit, BAM they were screaming, shrieks, "hurrahs" "yes" "****" and stuff in other languages, I realized it's supposed to be for "intimidation" and swaying the judges, but I think it's plain rediculous ..........................

I can GURANTEE there are a bunch of screamers who roam this board and I'm curious to see what they'll say.

It is encouraging to see that a new generation of fencers bring up these
issues and discuss it in a forum such as this. A similar question was raised
by another forum member a while ago. Here is the link to the thread in case
anyone is interested.
http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12599

Some of the rationale that I have heard goes like this:
1) We need to introduce "modernism" into the sport.
2) Introducing screaming adds "modernism" to the stale old fashioned
fencing style.
3) Screaming "differentiates" fencing from all those other sports and gets
people more excited and interested about fencing.
4) And last but not least, screaming is FIE sanctioned.

There are many Olympic sports out there, including combat sports, that
have retained their proven traditions and they still enjoy a large following
and large TV audience. They do not scream.

Fencing is probably the only Olympic sport where two people stand face
to face and they try to score hits on each other using a blunted weapon.
Doesn't this differentiate fencing from all those other sports ? Do we need
more differentiation than this ? Yes we do !! We need to add screaming !!
It adds more audience and gets people excited !!!

There were some discussions a few years back to drop or at least limit
the fencing events in the Olympics due to poor viewership. I am glad that
those discussions were just that - discussions. But if such a discussion
was raised, one has to look closely and find out if some of the sanctioned
actions such as screaming have actually helped fencing at all. It makes
you wonder.

gojujay · 10-06-2004, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavatione

Well, at this point it's even a matter of what we call "fencing": is it just a sport or is it actualy a martial art originaly born for killing and duelling purposes?

Don't forget that double hits are a rather modern, and sad, counter-effect of sport fencing. Real fencing should be "touch without being touched"...

Hear, hear. Single light actions only. Now that would be an evolution.

ThornOfTheBlood · 10-06-2004, 05:45 PM

Uh..that's called classical fencing lol.

OffTarget · 10-06-2004, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darius

Can I run for chief of flawed-analogy police?!?

Of course you can swing, miss, and yell "YES HOMERUN!!!" The ump will give you a funny look and say, "Steeeee-rike!!" Same thing with fencing; scream all you want. If it's not your touch, a competent ref won't give it to you, no matter what histrionics you engage in.

Your touch or not, if you want to Lambeau Leap, spike your weapon, moonwalk, do some bootylicious dance routine (unless you're Warren Sapp. Ew.), or waste your breath screaming, feel free. In fact, if you're my opponent, please waste more time and vascular effort on the convincing and celebration phase than you did on the last phrase.

darius

Yes, but I think the point of many of the anti-screamers here is that after the fifteenth swing and scream, even a baseball umpire would start getting annoyed.

I don't particularly think screaming is cheating, or evil, just extremely annoying if it happens at every touch. There is a limit that is hard to define, but as Justice Stevens once said about dirty pictures "I know it when I see it."

Inquartata · 10-06-2004, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victor

If it disrupts the opponent and throws him off his game, then, yeah, it's a "tactic."

Sure, Victor. Then why don't you just throw your shoe at him? Get a friend to flash a mirror in his eyes. Anything to accomplish that goal.

This "anything is OK if it works" attitude is one of the biggest problem in fencing---indeed all sports---today. Myself, I prefer to win a FENCING bout by means of FENCING, rather than skullduggery. Or else not to win at all. The battle is more important than the victory.

Inquartata · 10-06-2004, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavatione

Don't forget that double hits are a rather modern, and sad, counter-effect of sport fencing.

No...no they are not. Double kills were a rather frequent occurrence throughout the duelling period in Europe ( and elsewhere ). They were not desirable and not intentional, I am sure, but then what modern fencer prefers a double touch to one light, either?

Inquartata · 10-06-2004, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmmmmm....

It's not cheating to tip the balance in your favor.

Yes. Sometimes it is.

I don't know where you guys are picking up this "anything is acceptable that works" attitude, but it's one of the big problems in fencing---indeed all
sports---today, IMO.

Quote:

But, in baseball, it's not cheating to bat a certain way, or to trick a batter. It's not even cheating to have a different bat.

Is fencing baseball?

In any event---why do't you bring that corked bat to your next game, and tell the refs it's not cheating? I'm sure they'll be convinced.

[quote]I like to think of it as creativity. [quote]

Yes, I'll bet you do.

I hope you don't fence sabre. I'd like to think we're better than that.

Quote:

Sure, it's considered "bad".

Hey, maybe you could get your very own Jeff Gilooley to kneecap selected opponents before every tournament. I'm sure that will one day be a "tactic" rehabilitated by widespread acceptance.

Quote:

Look at Marcel Fischer. Look at Mariel Zagunis. Look at Aldo Montano. They scream their lungs out, but they're amazing fencers.

And correlation proves causation? What's your point?

Inquartata · 10-06-2004, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordSoul

1. Absolutely Essential: well, as essential to my game as a disengage or a flick. Again, to MY game is the key here.

So, if it were suddenly to be made against the rules and cardable you'd have to give up fencing, because you couldn't adapt to its loss?

Inquartata · 10-06-2004, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OffTarget

Can you attach a sound file? Can't judge a "barbaric yawp" til I hear it.

Heh, I wish I could figure a way to record a certain sabre fencer who will be at Long Beach this weekend, and play it for you all afterward. And then see who still defended the practice.

Inquartata · 10-06-2004, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achilleus

the FIE and many others, feel it's an appropiate display of passion for the sport.

And we all have the uttermost respect for every opinion of the FIE...

Inquartata · 10-06-2004, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darius

Of course you can swing, miss, and yell "YES HOMERUN!!!" The ump will give you a funny look and say, "Steeeee-rike!!" Same thing with fencing; scream all you want. If it's not your touch, a competent ref won't give it to you, no matter what histrionics you engage in.

Alas, fencing is more subjective than baseball. In the latter, either the ball goes off in bounds or it doesn't. Either is clearly obvious to all. Not so in fencing....

achilleus · 10-06-2004, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

And we all have the uttermost respect for every opinion of the FIE...

Well, considering that we play by their rules, we have to abide by their enforcement of the rules. It doesn't really matter whether I respect their opinion or not. I think the new timings are lame, but I'll adjust. While I have seen some fencers carded for some outbursts, screaming and celebrating is legal, and here to stay.

Since it is allowed, and can be used as a tactic to either convince the ref or rattle your opponent, it should be in the repetoire of every fencer.

Inquartata · 10-06-2004, 08:42 PM

Isn't that the same attitude which has brought us our current wonderful atmosphere and practices in the American political arena? As long as you abide by the strict letter or the election law, all is fair game: character assassination, fraudulent documents, inventing facts and figures...

achilleus · 10-06-2004, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Isn't that the same attitude which has brought us our current wonderful atmosphere and practices in the American political arena? As long as you abide by the strict letter or the election law, all is fair game: character assassination, fraudulent documents, inventing facts and figures...

How quick you are to dismiss analogies to other sports saying, 'They are not fencing, so those theories don't apply.' Yet so quick to offer the same type of analogy that supports your view.

Either way, it's still a moot point. It's legal. It works. It's not going away. Can we deal and move on?