What is up with screaming?

[Inquartata]

Depends. ( Bet you knew I'd say that. )

[JackSparrow]

Depends on what? I guess if any turn up in the first place

[Inquartata]

Not a problem with which I have ever had to contend. or possibly

Maybe we should ask oiuyt, he always seems to trail a coterie of admirers whenever he fences....

[acaba]

Originally Posted by Pun

Not arguing the point that screaming is ridiculous and stupid, it is a bad thing when you use it to try and change anything in the out come of the bout. That is cheating, anything that is not part of the sport and tips the balance towards yourself is cheating, period. Its not a pyscological thing its cheating.

What are we defining as "part of the sport"? I will try a lot of different things to change the outcome of the bout. I change my bladework, distance, tactics, body language, and yes, even my vocalizations.

I give two examples: My first opponent is know to have low endurance. So I set the bout tempo very high. He gets tired and frustrated, and begins to make mistakes, allowing me to win. My second opponent is known to get steamed up when his opponents yell. So I vocalize after every touch, mine or his. He then gets mentally tangled, begins to make mistakes, allowing me to win. Why is one of these tactics "OK" and one of the "cheating"? I simply use my knowledge of the other fencer and change my tactics to beat them. That's what fencing is all about. If you don't want to use a particular tactic to attempt to win a bout, that's OK with me. I will continue to use it.

[Inquartata]

Screaming is not a fencing "tactic". Tempo is.

[Victor]

If it disrupts the opponent and throws him off his game, then, yeah, it's a "tactic." Might not be generally accepted or taught, and obviously it's a tactic you can use without a blade in your hand as well (many husbands/wives employ it during their own arguments), but in the purest sense it can still be considered a tactic.

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Screaming is not a fencing "tactic". Tempo is.

Well, at this point it's even a matter of what we call "fencing": is it just a sport or is it actualy a martial art originaly born for killing and duelling purposes?

Don't forget that double hits are a rather modern, and sad, counter-effect of sport fencing. Real fencing should be "touch without being touched"...

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Screaming is not a fencing "tactic". Tempo is.

If you want to stick to a more refined, fencing-specific interpretation of tactics, then 'tempo' doesn't quite fit either. Tactics, by various definitions, are "a procedure or set of maneuvers engaged in to achieve an end, an aim, or a goal," or "an action calculated to achieve an end." Tempo, by itself, is merely a perspective of timing. If you want to apply tempo to a tactical end, then it would be more accurate to attach a verb (action) to it -- i.e. "changing tempo is a tactic." But tempo all by its lonesome is not a tactic any more than the blade is.

[ZenEpeeist]

My goal one day is to yell Yaba-daba-do at my opponent before I hit them; I'm thinking that might distract them.

--ZenTheImp

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by ZenEpeeist

My goal one day is to yell Yaba-daba-do at my opponent before I hit them; I'm thinking that might distract them.

--ZenTheImp

That's actually against the rules -- yelling with the hit is allowed, but you're not allowed to vocalise during the bout, *especially* if it's only to disrupt the opponent. I forget which seciton of the rules that falls under, something about being disruptive I think.

[ZenEpeeist]

There you go, ruining my fun.

Actually it was mainly a joke. I'm not really a verbal person, more of a visual and I am totally silent when I fence. I don't even like to feel any emotion during a bout especially anger; it gets in my way.

--ZenTheImp

[ThornOfTheBlood]

I don't even like to feel any emotion during a bout especially anger; it gets in my way. Otherwise I couldn't be a Zen fencer.

Lol, can you say "geek" ? Only a moron or a rock doesn't "allow" themselves to feel nothing, because now it's a sport, not actual resolves to conflict is such a way that if you win there is no one alive to tell you your wrong again lol. Fencing as well being a sport, is meant to be FUN, not robots having at each other.

[ZenEpeeist]

Originally Posted by ThornOfTheBlood

Fencing as well being a sport, is meant to be FUN, not robots having at each other.

I do have fun. The fun for me is picking the other guy apart...

I just try to avoid the negative emotions mainly because they lose you points.

And yes, I am a geek.

[hmmmmm....]

It's not cheating to tip the balance in your favor. Sure, doing something like taking steroids is cheating, but that's only because you're altering your body, thus giving you a boost over the person who has done just as much training and deserves it more.

But, in baseball, it's not cheating to bat a certain way, or to trick a batter. It's not even cheating to have a different bat. And it's definitely not cheating to contest a call with a ref. Why, therefore, should it be considered cheating to scream to influence a ref's decision? Surely we'd like to see reffing get so good that you wouldn't need to scream, but hey, it ain't gonna happen.

I, in fact, like things that tip the balance in my favor. Stuff like remises. Stuff like parries. Stuff like... jee, I don't know, there's just so much stuff. There's a lot of stuff, that's considered dirty play, but maybe if you did more of that, you'd win more. I like to think of it as creativity. Stuff like looking at your tip during a bout and then hitting your opponent as they come closer. Sure, it's considered "bad". But then again, Judaism was considered bad for a while, and look what happened to that sentiment. It was kind of destroyed for the most part during something we like to call "World War 2".

Also, look at the Olympics. Look at Marcel Fischer. Look at Mariel Zagunis. Look at Aldo Montano. They scream their lungs out, but they're amazing fencers. You shouldn't let someone win for the sake of sportsmanship. If they're getting frightened or sloppy because you're screaming, keep going. If they're getting more determined, stop.

And if the ref starts calling things your way... well, maybe you should change refs.

[S. Hunter]

Its not a matter of influencing the ref, really, its a matter of respect for the sport. I believe that its disrepectful to scream, and I will show just as much respect for someone who screams as they show towards me. (I fence, you don't HAVE to scream. Don't. Deal with it.)

[SwordSoul]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

"Necessity"? Then how do you explain those who do not do it? Ever?

In the words of Inigo Montoya, "I do no think that word means what you think it means."

necessary
SYLLABICATION: nec·es·sar·y
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: ns-sr KEY
ADJECTIVE: 1. Absolutely essential. See synonyms at indispensable.
2. Needed to achieve a certain result or effect; requisite: the necessary tools.
3a. Unavoidably determined by prior conditions or circumstances; inevitable: the necessary results of overindulgence. b. Logically inevitable.
4. Required by obligation, compulsion, or convention: made the necessary apologies.

Under which of these is screaming while fencing ever a "necessity", such that it must always be done?






I struggled to find a more polite way to put it, but...nonsense. Try telling Curt Andrus that he isn't "fighting his hardest" because he doesn't shriek like a harpooned boar after every ( or any ) touch.

Nonsense.

Because a horse isn't sufficiently beaten until it is flogged unrecognizable...

1. Absolutely Essential: well, as essential to my game as a disengage or a flick. Again, to MY game is the key here.
2. Needed to achieve a certain result or effect: well, yeah Several people have posted that it helps them to focus or release tension or to some extent actually be used as a tactic (or rather tool...which is part of a tactic IMO)
3. Unavoidably determined by prior conditions or circumstances; inevitable: the necessary results of overindulgence. b. Logically inevitable. Upon being exposed to screaming and its effects, I find it inevitable that I (and hundreds of others) began to do so as well. As a result of overindulgence? Well I suppose i could concede that if the grunt or the yell was a crime, then i guess the act of "overindulging" is at the core of the issue. I have no problem acknowledging that I may perhaps--but that's ENTIRELY subjective, no? b. Logically inevitable? Not sure. Probably not?
4.Required by obligation? eh no. compulsion? absolutely. convention? Isn't that why we're discussing this?


I imagine Curt Andrus has a different composure/demeanor than anyone who does scream. I feel that it is an effect of my fighting my hardest. You ask me to fight with restraint when you ask me not to scream. Yes, it is necessary, for ME <-----

as far as the Zen stuff goes: I agree with keeping emotion out of your (on strip) game--emotion is (or can be) a big distraction. , and that's certainly not fencing one touch at a time/being in this moment. You can totally apply Zen to fencing and have a blast (and scream, too!)

--of course, if one was fully in the moment, the scream should be an utter non-issue, right?


If anyone yelled Yaba-daba-do during a bout, i think i would have to shake their hand. That would make my week.

peace
matt

[mrbiggs]

I think the disagreement here is very simple, but I also think that about the flick disagreements. So I'm probably wrong.

Most of the people against screaming are concerned that it affects directors. Most of the people for screaming think that it helps you fence. I think that if one was clearly true, and not the other, we would be nearly unanimous in this. But instead, we're arguing different points.

So in my ever so humble opinion, the screaming, if it is done at inappropriate times, or to affect the director, is completely innapropriate and unsportsmanlike. On the other hand, I really don't mind someone screaming after a good or hard-fought touch, or when they're really intensely into the bout. (As long as they do it in moderation.)

Screaming depends on the situation.

In response to recent posts, I don't think anyone HAS to scream. Bet you ten dollars that if you got a black card for screaming that you'd get used to it pretty quick. (Purely hypothetical, I wouldn't support such a move). On the other hand, fencing would be a REALLY boring sport if such a rule were in effect.

[Epee_Pox]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Most of the people against screaming are concerned that it affects directors.

I'm not one of them. I'm against screaming because it makes you come off as either like a dork or an ***.

I'm not talking about a good loud shout with the effort of a lunge. Nor am I talking about a well-earned victory whoop. Those are not the same thing as screaming, which is a shrill nasty loud irritating noise that some people insist on making every dern time a light goes off. Think of that Chinese woman at the Olympics who shrieked like an insane person. When I'm at a competition and someone is screaming I see people shake their heads and raise their eyebrows at the clear lack of character. The screamer may be a good fencer, but he's still an irritant.

The only time you should scream is if you're in such intense pain that you can't help it. Any other time is inappropriate.

[telkanuru]

I fence epee. I have no direcotr's ROW call to influence. Why then should I not sound my barbaric yawp upon scoring a very, very pretty wrist touch against a skilled opponent? Why should I not yell "Bah!" upon doing something foolish that costs me? We left the time of Victorian reserve behind quite a while ago.

[scrapinpeg]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

I fence epee. I have no direcotr's ROW call to influence. Why then should I not sound my barbaric yawp upon scoring a very, very pretty wrist touch against a skilled opponent? Why should I not yell "Bah!" upon doing something foolish that costs me? We left the time of Victorian reserve behind quite a while ago.

Those vocalizations would be fine, I think, no matter what weapon you use. And not many people would have any problem with it that I know. But those sounds aren't screaming. Screaming is different.