German VS French point foils

[Lungin' Ry]

hello all, I'm looking on ordering a new foil of www.thefencingpost.com, where my local club coach orders all of his equipment from. And I was wondering what is the difference between german point and french point foils? I've heard german point is a "higher quality steel" and easier to repair then french but french is less expensive? Is this true and is german point really worth putting 10 extra bucks into just for it's qualities? let me know. Thanx

[vincikai]

Originally Posted by Lungin' Ry

hello all, I'm looking on ordering a new foil of www.thefencingpost.com, where my local club coach orders all of his equipment from. And I was wondering what is the difference between german point and french point foils? I've heard german point is a "higher quality steel" and easier to repair then french but french is less expensive? Is this true and is german point really worth putting 10 extra bucks into just for it's qualities? let me know. Thanx

yes get german point ._.

[DHCJr]

There are advantages and disadvantages and there are differences between the different French Tips. The German is a smoother tip, but has a more fragile barrel that dents easier.. Also the design of the screws has it's advantages and disadvantage. You are required to remove the screws completely when replacing the tip, but also the screws go out from barrel and can be damaged and the tip can fly out if you don't put them all the way in. There are even differences in some German Style tip.

French are less refined, but are usually more sturdy, but unlike the German tip, it is possilble to loose a tip and not know it.

Many times the choice is based on what your club and freinds uses, if you want to be able to share. Whatever choice you make, be consistent.

[Lungin' Ry]

So what will last longer? German or French, and I have seen that french points, when used alot, keep in their bending position slightly, which can create difficulties for the accuracy of your lunge. Keep posting I want to hear plenty of opinions.

[neevel]

The reason to prefer German (real German, i.e. Uhlmann or Allstar) is that they are made to more precise tolerances, which makes them smoother and more likely to light on glancing or sliding touches. They will not improve your point control or accuracy one iota, but rather will be more likely to register on a marginal touch. As Donald mentioned, the disadvantage of German points is that the barrels are not as strong (more likely to get dented or crack) and the screws heads, which stick out from the sides of the barrels, are liable to get mashed by a hard hit.

There are two French points commonly available on the US market-- which you get depends on the vendor. The Prieur point (Santelli and The Fencing Post sell them) has a thick walled barrel that is very resistant to damage. The tip for the Prieur points, on the other hand, is the least durable. It uses a relatively soft brass flange to hold the tip together and keep it in the barrel. That flange will start to come un-peened after not much use, leading at first to random off-target lights and ultimately letting the tip fall-out completely. The plastic that insulates the tip from the barrel is also not covered by a metal sheath on the Prieur tip (unlike German and Sport 7 tips). Not only does this make the tip less smooth in it's action, but the insulation is more vulnerable to damage which can cause the point to ground out and not register.

The Sport 7 points (Blue Gauntlet and American Fencers Supply use them) are more of a happy medium. They're not as precise as the Uhlmann points, but they do have a metal sheath on the tip, the barrel is stronger than Uhlmann, and they're far less prone to the peening problems that Prieur tips have. You need to know that Prieur and Sport 7 point parts are almost-but-not quite compatible, so mixing and matching parts between the two isn't always going to be reliable.

I'd say the Sport 7 points are overall the most durable of the ones I mentioned, but I use Uhlmann points myself for the smoother action. Whatever you choose, order some spare springs and screws along with the foil. Springs eventually weaken and need to be changed to keep the weapon passing weight, and the small screws have a tendency to get lost while you're changing the spring. German screws should also be replaced at the first sign of damage, before they get so bad that you can't remove them from the barrel.

-Dave

[cowpaste]

I say the French points. When you get your first mashed screw with a German tip, you will understand why. French tips are just plain more durable. The smother action of the German tips become NO action when the barrels dent.

[EricS]

Dave has a good point (no pun intended) when he mentions the tendency of the French points to come "un-peened"--the crimp inside the tip comes loose and spins freely, leading to spurious off targets. I usually heat it with a soldering iron and apply a tiny dab of solder to ensure good contact. After smoothing with a file, the tip is better than new.

Of course, once you fix that problem it leads to another problem; the French tips use plastic insulators on the contact that can rotate freely within the barrel. Twisting the tip causes the spring to grab the contact and twist it off the wire. On the other hand, Uhlmann seems to have switched to a similar insulator for some unknown reason so this criticism applies across the board now.

Personally I like the Schermasport screwless tips; you can beat them around without shearing off any tip screws.

[brtech]

I keep a lot of teenager's equipment running for clubs and high schools, and get to see a lot of tips.

My take is that the French tips cost less, and don't last as long, and have more cases of inconsistant behavior.

The German tips cost more initially, but less over time, even when you occasionally have to toss one when the screw gets mashed, and take less effort to keep working. I try to get the kids to use german points, but there is not a lot of difference.

Please do take the advice on this thread of keeping parts for whatever system you use, and not get them mixed up with other parts.

One thing that has not been mentioned on this thread is
CLEAN YOUR TIPS REGULARLY

How often depends on how much you fence with the weapon. If you are practicing two or three times a week, you should be cleaning your tips maybe once a month. Certainly that should be one of your tournament preparations. Dirty tips are the the most common reason for random failures (intermittant white light for example).

[Purple Fencer]

.To Dave Neevel: Actually, Fencing Post sells Sport 7 French points...as do I (logical, since Fencing Post is my prime supplier!)

Donald: Don't forget that if the little flange unscrews itself on a German oint, you can lose the tip and still have a completed circuit, since the screws & collar remain in and complete the connection

For Lungin' Ry: Another important differance between German and French points in foil is how the tip stays in the barrel. On a French point, the collar around the tip has threaded holes for the screws. The holes in teh barrel are smooth.

On a German it's the opposite...the barrel screw holes are threaded and the collar looks like an empty tire rim; the screws simply project into that space to hold the tip in.

As such, you cannot mix the parts...although it is POSSIBLE ('cause I've seen it) to use a German screw in a French tip...I wouldn't recommend it though. Solidity of connection is part of the overall electrical circuit, and a screw that just sits in a smooth barrel hole instead of screwing in is not ov erly reliable.

[cowpaste]

Older French tips are iffy, but with the newer Sport 7s, I really see no reasons to use German tips other than personal bias. They don't do that unpeening you guys talk about, and the tip is all metal (no plastic). German tips will still offer smoother travel when you first buy them, but they become dented way too easily, and then the smoother travel doesn't mean jack. Basically what I'm saying is that German tips are better machined, but French tips have a better design.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by cowpaste

Older French tips are iffy, but with the newer Sport 7s, I really see no reasons to use German tips other than personal bias. They don't do that unpeening you guys talk about, and the tip is all metal (no plastic). German tips will still offer smoother travel when you first buy them, but they become dented way too easily, and then the smoother travel doesn't mean jack. Basically what I'm saying is that German tips are better machined, but French tips have a better design.

From a convenience standpoint...when you're in a rush (stretching the spring between bouts, for example), not having to search for the screw on a French is worth a lot......that's a prime reason why I switched from French to German. If you don't have a magnetized screwdriver, those Frenchies are a pain to put back in, particilarly with the need to line up the holes.

[cowpaste]

Since when are German tips screwless?!

I will talk about screws though. When you're in a rush to stretch a spring in between matches, I promise you a French screw is easier to remove than a mashed in German screw.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by neevel

The reason to prefer German (real German, i.e. Uhlmann or Allstar) is that they are made to more precise tolerances, which makes them smoother and more likely to light on glancing or sliding touches. They will not improve your point control or accuracy one iota, but rather will be more likely to register on a marginal touch.

This is why I use German tips, but reading this makes me think of changing.

With the new timings, will the German tips still confer any advantage in foil? I'm thinking that these marginal hits (good with a German tip, no good with a French) will disappear with the new timings. If (when?) it turns out that the new timings are here to stay, I might have to think about switching.

[DHCJr]

Sam, your right about the German. I was thinking about the older German tips. Like everyone else, they have gone cheap.

Cowpaste, what Sam was talking about was not that the German tips are screwless, but that you do not need to remove the screws completely, just loosen them a little. Any of the French style screws must be removed completely.

[HDG]

What about these sweet new LP points I've been hearing about?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

A german tip can give you 2-3 extra points per bout, atleast in epee. If your gonna put alot of your game in minority shots, like flicks and grazes, then use german. It would be a shame to lose the gold medal bout because your gear sucked.

[cowpaste]

I hear German tips are the way to go in epee, but in foil, there are just too many benefits to the Sport 7s for me not to use them. By the way, French tips aren't sucky. However, French (Prieur) socket and retainer system really suck. French grips also suck unless you are veeco. :P