10-07-2004, 04:36 PM
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#81 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Venezia, Italia
Posts: 114
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by gladius Cavatione two questions for you:
1. Can you explain the role of the commissari tecnici (as I asked in post #58)?
2. Why is Sala d'arme and not Sala d'armi?
Grazie! | I read you post. Sorry for my late answer, but I didn't have much time till now.
here we go. First of all, I'm not that expert in FIS business, not being a sport fencer, but rather a classical fencer.
FIS has:
-one president (political chairman)
-one "commissario tecnico", that is the role up to overview the techical aspect regarding the activities of the three weapons
-one technical responsible for each weapon
-all the other maestri
Personaly, I don't think this is something that should be imitated, considering what kind of &%$£ chairmans can be. And FIS is a highly burocratical thing, anyway...
Maybe, one good point about italian sports (not soccer  ) is that, to let the athlets train properly as professional, htey are given a job usually in some police force. Either Polizia di Stato, Guardia di Finanza or Carabinieri. So they get a decent wage, and they can train in the Official Police Forces sport group, the "Fiamme Oro" (Golden Flames). This way, the athletes are not forced to look for a job continuosly and they can focus to become champions.
About "arme" is just a more antiquated way to say the same thing, "armi" (plural of "weapons"). For examples, Torquato Tasso's incipit of "La Gerusalemme liberata" is "Canterò i cavalieri, l'arme e l'amori" ("Ill sing about the knights, the weapons and the romances").
Considering fencing is a traditional activity, we still use a traditional word. But you can find both. And you can use both. I prefear the first one, though.
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"Per me la scherma rappresenta in forme concrete la scienza della vita, che è pur essa una cotidiana battaglia;
ed è per ciò che le signorine dovrebbero apprendere la scherma. La scherma non fa perdere alla donna il carattere della femminilità; e la spada, che sotto i gentili auspici della donna - nella favola come nella vita - operò prodigi, compierà sempre la sua alta missione di valore e di virtù.
Caltagirone 29 luglio 1894
Agesilao Greco
Last edited by Cavatione; 10-08-2004 at 09:54 AM.
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10-07-2004, 04:40 PM
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#82 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Venezia, Italia
Posts: 114
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by gladius Since you are Italian, you live in probably the most beautiful city in the world...
...Grazie! |
Hey, thanks for that! 
Prego 
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"Per me la scherma rappresenta in forme concrete la scienza della vita, che è pur essa una cotidiana battaglia;
ed è per ciò che le signorine dovrebbero apprendere la scherma. La scherma non fa perdere alla donna il carattere della femminilità; e la spada, che sotto i gentili auspici della donna - nella favola come nella vita - operò prodigi, compierà sempre la sua alta missione di valore e di virtù.
Caltagirone 29 luglio 1894
Agesilao Greco
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10-07-2004, 04:43 PM
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#83 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Venezia, Italia
Posts: 114
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by geolapins Cavatione, I need more Italian lessons. How do you say "the Italian style of fencing" | By the way, did you mean "fencng" as a noun or as a verb?
In the first case, the sentence changes in:
"lo stile italiano nella scherma"
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"Per me la scherma rappresenta in forme concrete la scienza della vita, che è pur essa una cotidiana battaglia;
ed è per ciò che le signorine dovrebbero apprendere la scherma. La scherma non fa perdere alla donna il carattere della femminilità; e la spada, che sotto i gentili auspici della donna - nella favola come nella vita - operò prodigi, compierà sempre la sua alta missione di valore e di virtù.
Caltagirone 29 luglio 1894
Agesilao Greco
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10-07-2004, 04:47 PM
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#84 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Venezia, Italia
Posts: 114
| I must say that I'm really enjoying this post, with all the people from lots of different places that gathered here...  
By the way, I'm going with champagne too (but I'd prefear spumante ), even if I don't dislike prosecco.
Maybe, when I'll challenge gladius to a duel, after we'll have sliced each other a little, we could go drink the night away  in the company of some charming woman! 
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"Per me la scherma rappresenta in forme concrete la scienza della vita, che è pur essa una cotidiana battaglia;
ed è per ciò che le signorine dovrebbero apprendere la scherma. La scherma non fa perdere alla donna il carattere della femminilità; e la spada, che sotto i gentili auspici della donna - nella favola come nella vita - operò prodigi, compierà sempre la sua alta missione di valore e di virtù.
Caltagirone 29 luglio 1894
Agesilao Greco
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10-07-2004, 06:08 PM
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#85 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 398
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Cavatione I must say that I'm really enjoying this post, with all the people from lots of different places that gathered here...
By the way, I'm going with champagne too (but I'd prefear spumante ), even if I don't dislike prosecco.
Maybe, when I'll challenge gladius to a duel, after we'll have sliced each other a little, we could go drink the night away in the company of some charming woman! | Back on the nationalistic bantering. You must have had some sour experience with the French if you want to knock down their champagne! I like Prosecco, but champagne is champagne zut!
Regarding the feat of "sabrer le champagne" if you follow the instructions given, no glass splinters from the bottle are included. It's a matter of physics... and proper execution. I cannot accept a duel (classical or modern) since I don't fence, so we have to limit ourselves to verbal sparring -- more effective when done over the bandwith. But we may sabrer le Prosecco one day! I assure you that all the ladies will be very favorably impressed.
Do you know of anyone who could explain how the FIS runs its competitive programs for each weapon from the promising youngsters to the Olympic champions? I am aware of the paramilitary programs for the top athletes. But what about the younger ones?
As to the Italian fencing lingo: I am glad you corrected the translation of "Italian style of fencing" in Lo stile italiano della scherma. The previous one is too .... classic to be used today, no?
The difference between arme and armi: other than the old form used by Tasso and others, I thought that maybe armi is the plural form for all weapons (swords, guns, slingshots, etc.) and arme was restricted to "armi bianche" only, in other words swords and weapons with blades. I don't have a dictionary handy and that's why I asked you. | |
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10-08-2004, 05:20 AM
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#86 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Venezia, Italia
Posts: 114
| [quote=gladius]I cannot accept a duel (classical or modern) since I don't fence, so we have to limit ourselves to verbal sparring -- more effective when done over the bandwith. But we may sabrer le Prosecco one day! I assure you that all the ladies will be very favorably impressed.[quote]
Uhm, ok... I can accept a duel with guns (single shot) though...
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"Per me la scherma rappresenta in forme concrete la scienza della vita, che è pur essa una cotidiana battaglia;
ed è per ciò che le signorine dovrebbero apprendere la scherma. La scherma non fa perdere alla donna il carattere della femminilità; e la spada, che sotto i gentili auspici della donna - nella favola come nella vita - operò prodigi, compierà sempre la sua alta missione di valore e di virtù.
Caltagirone 29 luglio 1894
Agesilao Greco
Last edited by Cavatione; 10-08-2004 at 05:29 AM.
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10-08-2004, 11:50 AM
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#87 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seattle
Posts: 31
| How about a duel with empty champagne (or spumante) bottles? First, we'll empty them vigorously; then, en garde. One beat should suffice to end the whole affair. I'll direct; I am an incompetent director. The champagne can only make me better. | |
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10-08-2004, 12:15 PM
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#88 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seattle
Posts: 31
| I have republished my website. Merciless criticism is, of course, welcome.
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Live dangerously!...philosophize with a hammer! | |
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10-08-2004, 01:14 PM
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#89 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Venezia, Italia
Posts: 114
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by geolapins I have republished my website. Merciless criticism is, of course, welcome. | Still the same link you posted above?
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"Per me la scherma rappresenta in forme concrete la scienza della vita, che è pur essa una cotidiana battaglia;
ed è per ciò che le signorine dovrebbero apprendere la scherma. La scherma non fa perdere alla donna il carattere della femminilità; e la spada, che sotto i gentili auspici della donna - nella favola come nella vita - operò prodigi, compierà sempre la sua alta missione di valore e di virtù.
Caltagirone 29 luglio 1894
Agesilao Greco
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10-08-2004, 01:35 PM
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#90 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seattle
Posts: 31
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Live dangerously!...philosophize with a hammer! | |
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10-08-2004, 08:29 PM
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#91 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 398
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by geolapins How about a duel with empty champagne (or spumante) bottles? First, we'll empty them vigorously; then, en garde. One beat should suffice to end the whole affair. I'll direct; I am an incompetent director. The champagne can only make me better. | A duel between Cavatione and Gladius?
Well if Cavatione is the challenger, then I have the choice of the weapon. Edward George Bulwer Lytton (1803-1873), an English novelist, wrote in 1839, "Beneath the rule of men entirely great, the pen is mightier than the sword."
Since Cavatione has proven to be a man of great knowledge of fencing history and traditions, Gladius choice is the pen, or in this case the modern equivalent the keyboard.
Furthermore Cavatione, remember the Italian proverb "Chi di spada ferisce, di spada perisce" which is rendered in English as "You live by the sword, you die by the sword."
Geolapins, keep the champagne chilled. We'll perform the sabrage one day! Cavatione notwithstanding, you should write "Lo stile italiano della scherma" not "nella" which is the literal translation but doesn't sound good. Alternatively, if you want to proclaim that in your Sala d'arme the Italian style is practiced, you may write "Scherma secondo lo stile italiano."
I'm now sharpening my pencil in preparation of Cavatione's objections.... | |
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10-09-2004, 05:55 AM
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#92 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Venezia, Italia
Posts: 114
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by gladius A duel between Cavatione and Gladius?
Well if Cavatione is the challenger, then I have the choice of the weapon. Edward George Bulwer Lytton (1803-1873), an English novelist, wrote in 1839, "Beneath the rule of men entirely great, the pen is mightier than the sword."
Since Cavatione has proven to be a man of great knowledge of fencing history and traditions, Gladius choice is the pen, or in this case the modern equivalent the keyboard.
Furthermore Cavatione, remember the Italian proverb "Chi di spada ferisce, di spada perisce" which is rendered in English as "You live by the sword, you die by the sword."
Geolapins, keep the champagne chilled. We'll perform the sabrage one day! Cavatione notwithstanding, you should write "Lo stile italiano della scherma" not "nella" which is the literal translation but doesn't sound good. Alternatively, if you want to proclaim that in your Sala d'arme the Italian style is practiced, you may write "Scherma secondo lo stile italiano."
I'm now sharpening my pencil in preparation of Cavatione's objections.... | Can I get some sort of "James Bond pen" with the bullet shooting feature?
Yeah, keep some prosecco chilled, I'm looking forward to it.
Your sentence, with "della" is not wrong. Mine version is just for euphonetical reasons. Between the two sentences, there is the same difference you might find between the two english sentences "in fencing" and "of fencing". I do prefear "nella scherma". But geolapins is free to use "della scherma", if he prefears to give the feeling of "the italian style OF fencing".
The second sentence is right, but it's something else. Far from geolapins needs... If he had asked me to translate "Fencing in the italian style", I would have used that sentence. But that wasn't what he asked me.
But weren't you the one who prefeared more modern looking sentences? It'd sound better "scherma di stile italiano", then...
Argh, now gladius will come up quoting the "Italian juridical code of cavalry" of Mr Jacopo Gelli, where all the ways to get to a duel or to settle down a score between gentlemen are fully explained.
(you can still get this book as a perfect reproduction of the one printed in 1904 fron Italian Editor "Hoepli", for some 8 euro)
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"Per me la scherma rappresenta in forme concrete la scienza della vita, che è pur essa una cotidiana battaglia;
ed è per ciò che le signorine dovrebbero apprendere la scherma. La scherma non fa perdere alla donna il carattere della femminilità; e la spada, che sotto i gentili auspici della donna - nella favola come nella vita - operò prodigi, compierà sempre la sua alta missione di valore e di virtù.
Caltagirone 29 luglio 1894
Agesilao Greco
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10-09-2004, 06:14 AM
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#93 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Venezia, Italia
Posts: 114
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by gladius Cavatione notwithstanding, you should write "Lo stile italiano della scherma" not "nella" which is the literal translation but doesn't sound good. | By the way, that is what is called a "semantical error", or else, right from the gramatical point of view, but wrong in its real meaning.
Your can have a style "in qualcosa" ("in something"). But you talk "di qualcosa" ("about something")
So, "Lo stile della scherma italiana" would work properly; maybe as a book title 
__________________
"Per me la scherma rappresenta in forme concrete la scienza della vita, che è pur essa una cotidiana battaglia;
ed è per ciò che le signorine dovrebbero apprendere la scherma. La scherma non fa perdere alla donna il carattere della femminilità; e la spada, che sotto i gentili auspici della donna - nella favola come nella vita - operò prodigi, compierà sempre la sua alta missione di valore e di virtù.
Caltagirone 29 luglio 1894
Agesilao Greco
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10-09-2004, 12:08 PM
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#94 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seattle
Posts: 31
| As director, I must declare 'nothing done!' (no point awarded due to double touch) in this engagement. Both sides have scored simultaneously with their erudition, but I can't tell who has right-of-way (not enough prosecco yet) in this action. BTW, I am a native speaker of latvian and german, having been born in Germany of said parentage. Thus, my inclination in regard to semantic usage is usually toward the native speaker of the language in question. Gladius, are you Italian? How can I be properly biased if I don't have all the facts! I have long since lost fluency in both languages; the fact that I've also studied Russian and French also gets me all lingually mixed up sometimes. But, I do retain some 'innate' feel in my ear for German or Latvian enunciations
said improperly. Back to fencing, how do you say 'nothing done' in Italian and French? Also, in coaching, when a student performs a technically correct action delivering the point with the correct bend on the coach's target, the coach will raise his blade and strike the student's on the underside. Does the coach then say "et là!", or what?
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Live dangerously!...philosophize with a hammer! | |
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10-09-2004, 01:09 PM
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#95 | | Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Texas
Posts: 67
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by geolapins ... how do you say 'nothing done' in ... French? | The answers to many questions about French terminology are available verbatim from the FIE rules (the original version, not the Brits' official English translation). The Gestes et Mots de l'Arbitrage shows the referee swinging his arms from his sides to past each other in front of the body and back, indicating aucun point ou avertissement, and saying, "Rien!". | |
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10-09-2004, 01:14 PM
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#96 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seattle
Posts: 31
| thanks, MTD. Re: the Italian style...here's what I wrote on my web page: Ray was a member of the American College of Arms, and an attorney
by profession. He was a devotee of lo stile italiano nella scherma
(the Italian style). The photograph of Nadi on this website was
autographed by the great Italian maestro to Ray.
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Live dangerously!...philosophize with a hammer! | |
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10-09-2004, 03:40 PM
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#97 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 398
| Quote from Geolapins
"... my inclination in regard to semantic usage is usually toward the native speaker of the language in question. Gladius, are you Italian? How can I be properly biased if I don't have all the facts!..."
Interesting question, interesting point, but there is no way anyone can be "properly biased" (an oxymoron!). In order not to hijack this thread any longer, this will be my last posting on this erudite discussions.
Geolapins started this thread with two different questions: one of semantics, i.e., how do you use the lingo of fencing in different countries; one of translation of certain English expressions. Cavatione is the master of the first when Italian is concerned. He is Italian and appears to be an expert of "cose di scherma" fencing facts, customs, history, and tradition. There is a dictionary about scherma "Dizionario ragionato della scherma" by Alberto Bernacchi
http://www.schermanet.it/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownloaddetail s&lid=35&ttitle=Dizionario_ragionato_della_scherma _9^_parte:_lettera_I
which I never took the time to download covering the specific language of this sport. Note that in Italy there are more than one "scuola di scherma" and language usage changes much more than American English depending on where you live (north/south, east/west).
But when we go about translating -- better rendering -- English expressions in Italian/other languages or viceversa, you must know them all, or else you mess up. This is why using Babelfish produces hard to understand, funny, or misleading text (compare my translation of the French article to "sabrer le champagne" with the English version provided when you click that option in the website). In this linguistic sparring I have pointed out to our learned friend Cavatione that his English was off, occasionally.
After I visited your website, I saw the context in which you were using the Italian expressions, and this is why I made the suggestions: in my opinion, the proper rendering of your English expressions in Italian are what I posted.
All this leads me to believe in a "lingua franca" a single language for international exchanges and interactions. The FIE French v/s English version of the rules governing the sport is a case in point. French is the official language of the IOC/COI because the modern Olympics were started by Baron de Coubertin. Fencing, being one of the more traditional sports followed suit. To be practical and avoid endless discussions, English should be used by all as the new lingua franca (it used to be Latin) at a minimum in written communication. But I am a strong proponent of the study and mastery of other languages. Looking to the future, I am now working on my Chinese.....
Over and out / Passo e chiudo | |
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10-09-2004, 04:47 PM
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#98 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seattle
Posts: 31
| Gladius, grazie for playing. Your insights and knowledge are worth the read
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Live dangerously!...philosophize with a hammer!
Last edited by geolapins; 10-09-2004 at 05:05 PM.
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10-09-2004, 05:10 PM
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#99 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seattle
Posts: 31
| I know that 'properly biased' is oxymoronic. That's just me philosophizing with a hammer. . In addition to fencing and language, I have also a fondness for philosophy (Wittgenstein, Nietzsche, Heidegger) and poetry (Mayakovsky, Rimbaud, Black Eyed Peas, among others)
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Live dangerously!...philosophize with a hammer! | |
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10-09-2004, 05:35 PM
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#100 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Seattle
Posts: 31
| One more thing. Gladius and Cavatione point to a significant consideration in the art of translation: the context in which something is said. In English, fencing can also refer to the structure surrounding your house; or selling stolen goods on the black market. If I ask how to translate the word, the next question is what am I talking about.
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