en garde...ready...fence!

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by gladius

What I like about this sport are its roots in history and traditions. Though a fencing bout is completely different from a real duel -- as the writing by Aldo Nadi clearly indicates -- I personally feel that the tradition has been to make it "safe" or safer and preventing uncalled for accidents in an activity which is inherently dangerous. The dilemma has always been how to safely prepare and best train for the one time, or few times, when everything is on the line.

Going back to Nadi's writing, the most interesting part for me is his psychological anaysis of all the parties present at the duel, last but not least the spectators. Mutatis mutandis, it can be applied to what today fencers face in a very important final bout.

I also liked the part about the ground where he fenced in San Siro. It ties very much with your quotation about "la scherma di terreno." Never underestimate the footwork......

Well, you could reasonably say that the history of fencing grew up with human kind itself...
And your point is what always made the difference between Italian fencing and french fencing: for the Italians, fencing was a lifestyle, a philosophy and a way to stay alive.
For the french it started with the same reasons, but, not being able to overcome the italians (this is history: the number of dead french in a duel with an italian is all the way superior to the reverse one), they tried to turn it in a much more esthetical act. Foil was indeed born as a training weapon for the smallsword.

Ironically, the more the french developed the smallsword to beat the italian rapier ("striscia italiana"), the more the italian perfectioned their weapon, until the Scorza-Grisetti's one, at the beginning of XIX century. Then, in front of the changing times (less deadly duels and more "first blood" ones), the french developed the so called "epeè de combat", that was faster and more functional for the new way of fencing. Then the Italians took the upper hand again thanks to Aurelio Greco and his "spada da terreno" at the end of the XIX century itself. But the duelling era was at its end, even if in Italy the last duels of honor were fought in the late '40s.

Obviously, in XXI century speaking about duels is far from our forma mentis, even if, for God's sake, sometime more than someone would need a good lesson about manners and honor nowadays...

[ZenEpeeist]

I think that fertig is used to indicate: Are you done (getting ready)? The getting ready part is implied.

There's no saying that the commands are going to translate literally from one language to another. Classical example of a language mistake: Ich bin ein Berliner.

--ZenTheImp

By the way, does anybody have a reason why it's called a "piste" everywhere else in the world and a "strip" in the United States? Isn't the "piste" French?

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by ZenEpeeist

By the way, does anybody have a reason why it's called a "piste" everywhere else in the world and a "strip" in the United States? Isn't the "piste" French?

Actualy, in Italy it's called with its original name:

PEDANA

[geolapins]

I've directed several acquaintenances to Nadi's account of the duel. One responded, 'What? no ambulance!'. Each was, however, taken aback by the account. Probably the closest action in the America understanding must be the ninetheenth century gunfight...less formality but equally as intense, I imagine.

[gladius]

Originally Posted by jeff

That's for sure - "Sind Sie warm?" means "Are you warm?" if translated literally, but means "Are you gay?" in modern usage. So, be careful when you're asking somebody if they want the air conditioner turned up.

Without even referring to current slang, going a from one language to another is not a mechanical word-by-word translation. In German, for instance, the adjective gluecklich means both lucky and happy. No way for a computer to distinguish between the two. And there are instances in which being lucky doesn't imply happiness or vice versa. So stick with humans who really know how to speak more languages and then be prepared to listen to the discussions between the "experts" to finally make up your own mind as to what is going on.

A final comment on "patch" in Italian. Stemma has a heraldic connotation characteristic of say a coat of arms. Emblema is less specific and can be often substituted for symbol. Now then, if you really want to translate the rather prosaic word patch in Italian, at least in the colloquial form, use the word "patacca" which is just as prosaic as patch. Example: You would not call the Presidential Seal a Presidential patch, nor would you call a club patch the club seal. Italian, being more formal, accepts to call a "patacca" a "stemma" even though it is still a patch. I hope I didn't offend anyone. All patches are.... "seals" to me.

[geolapins]

Actually, I was initially going to use the French for 'coat of arms'. More elegant.

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by gladius

A final comment on "patch" in Italian. Stemma has a heraldic connotation characteristic of say a coat of arms. Emblema is less specific and can be often substituted for symbol. Now then, if you really want to translate the rather prosaic word patch in Italian, at least in the colloquial form, use the word "patacca" which is just as prosaic as patch. Example: You would not call the Presidential Seal a Presidential patch, nor would you call a club patch the club seal. Italian, being more formal, accepts to call a "patacca" a "stemma" even though it is still a patch. I hope I didn't offend anyone. All patches are.... "seals" to me.

Thanks a lot for the italian language lesson... But, considering I AM Italian and I DO live in Italy, let me explain you a couple of things:
maybe you are confusing the fact that english, as far as I know, calls "patch" even a piece of tissue used to repair an old dress... well, in italian that is a "pezza". "Patacca" is used for a fake: i.e.: an imitation of a Rolex pocket watch is a patacca.

But, a patch with the meaning of a symbol of a club or an association, well, that's a "stemma". Or an "emblema". Even if in my previous post I told that "emblema" is too heavy in its meaning to symbolize a club patch, exactly for its religious references.
And, yes, "stemma" comes from heraldry. And what are club symbols if not an heraldic derivation?

Hope I dissipated everybody's doubts on my language

[Thorin]

Originally Posted by geolapins

re: Babelfish. The point is well-taken, even though I have no clue what Babelfish is. Who better to respond to a question on Italian fencing terminology than an Italian fencer (e.g Cavatione's answer regarding the word 'club patch'). I am comfortable saying 'En garde, etc' because I know French, but I could make a linguistic mess by trying to say it in Italian. As Wittgenstein said,'Language is a ladder to the universe', or something like that.

Tips:

1. Instead of saying "I don't know what X is" try just entering it into Google http://www.google.com. If you're posting on a message board you're have internet access & therefore access to untold volumes of information. Learning to find thing on your own will make you seem very wise & intelligent. Try it with "babelfish".

2. Congrats for delving into creating your own web site, but a few pointers:
-- avoid images as backgrounds. A web site should be easy to read otherwise your visitors will give up w/out exploring your site.
-- use either dark text on a light colored backgroud, or light text on a dark colored backgroud, high contrast makes text easier to read.

3. This reply is in no way condescending, I am genuinely trying to be helpful. Good advice with no tact is still good advice.

[Stylothek]

Originally Posted by gladius

3. "Sind Sie fertig?" is a question addressed to a fencer asking if he/she is ready to start fencing (using the courtesy form, hence the capital S in Sie).

4. "Seid ihr fertig?" is a question addressed to both fencers asking them if they are ready to start the bout.

5. "Seid ihr fertig!" is a command to both fencers to get ready to start the bout. This may or may not be used and in the classical sense it shouldn't since after the "En garde!" warning, for safety and fairness, the question should follow whether the fencers are ready to start or not.

Sorry, but having some experience fencing here, I must disagree on these points. "Seid ihr fertig?" should never be said at a tournament, as it is very informal. Instead, use "Sind Sie fertig?" when you want to adress both fencers. Furthermore, there is no way of using "Seid ihr fertig!" as a command. I have never heard anything like it yet. If you want to say something with the same meaning, use "Machen Sie sich fertig" or "Bereiten Sie sich vor" or "Fertigmachen!".
So, typically a dialogue in German fencing as I have expierienced it in Koblenz, Bonn and in competitions looks like this:
Ref: "Fertig?"
Fencers: "Ja, fertig/bereit" (optional)
Ref: "Los!"
When a touch is scored, the Ref says: "Halt, Treffer von X nach Y, 0:2" (Stop, Touch scored from X to Y, 0:2)

Those were my two Pfennigs. (We have Cents here by now too....;-))

[gladius]

Originally Posted by Cavatione

Thanks a lot for the italian language lesson... But, considering I AM Italian and I DO live in Italy, let me explain you a couple of things:
maybe you are confusing the fact that english, as far as I know, calls "patch" even a piece of tissue used to repair an old dress... well, in italian that is a "pezza". "Patacca" is used for a fake: i.e.: an imitation of a Rolex pocket watch is a patacca.

But, a patch with the meaning of a symbol of a club or an association, well, that's a "stemma". Or an "emblema". Even if in my previous post I told that "emblema" is too heavy in its meaning to symbolize a club patch, exactly for its religious references.
And, yes, "stemma" comes from heraldry. And what are club symbols if not an heraldic derivation?

Hope I dissipated everybody's doubts on my language

Tsk tsk tsk... This is why I said before to get ready for the battle of the "experts." Don't jump all over me. Your Italian is beyond reproach, but this is not the case of your English. To make sense you must be proficient in both. Italian and English have many roots in common, but the usage of words and expressions is sometime different. Patacca/patch is a case in point.

Pezza is one meaning for patch, like patacca for a fake Rolex is a usage of the word, not the only one. I was adressing my comments more to the English speaking people when I explained, with the proper example, the difference between seal and patch which is, in my opinion, the same as between patacca (colloquial) and stemma. The problem arises in the philosophy of the two people. Italians being by nature and tradition more formal, Americans much more casual in their use of words.

I found your distinction between the French and Italians in "fencing culture" interesting, though a bit shrill. Stepping away for a moment from fencing and meandering in the world of cuisine, it's interesting to consider how the world's cuisine have evolved over time.

My personal opinion is that there are three most important cuisines in the world: Chinese, Italian, and French. All three had to solve a fundamental problem: how to preserve food to feed everyone and prevent spoilage when refrigeration was not available (until the first half of the 20th century).

Three different methods developed:

1. Chinese

Beside the refrigeration/preservation issue they had the problem of fuel (maily firewood) which was difficult to gather given the density of population and vast areas of desert. So they invented the wok and their cuisine consists of a lot of preparation (pealing, cleaning, dicing, chopping) which could be farmed off to the various servants/children, followed by a quick toss in the very hot wok for cooking. Since everything is about the same size it either cooks at the same time or it is staggered in the way it is tossed in the wok. A very smart solution indeed to minimize the use of BTU's and produce delectable flavors.

2. Italian

Maybe because of personality and/or geography, Italians developed a regional and seasonal cuisine. You ate what the area around you provided and you changed your diet during the season, minimizing the need to store perishable staples (meat, fish) and increasing the use of spices to counter the strong flavor of salt used for preservation. The search for spices prompted adventurers to travel to far and foreign lands (but this is another story). This is why most Italian cookbooks used to be regional and seasonal. This is why still the Italian cuisine is the most diversified.

3. French

As in the case of scherma, they learned from the Italians when the young (13 or 15 years old) Caterina de' Medici was sent off to France to marry the future king of France. The description of this voyage from Florence to Paris includes the interesting fact that 30 Italian cooks were part of her household and followed her to France to alleviate her difficult adaptation to live in such a barbarian country (in the opinion of the Florentines of the time). These 30 cooks (Italian) started what has now evolved in the French cuisine since.

But this is the interesting part. France then as is the case today, had a climate that was a bit colder than Italy, so food would not spoil as rapidly as in Italy. Furthermore, in colder climate some concotions could be made that were not so easy to produce in Italy -- like icecream (gelato) which according to some stories was invented in France by these 30 cooks to make Caterina feel better. But back to the problem of food (meat and fish) spoilage. In France they found out that using a sauce you could cover/mask the gamy flavor of past-the-prime-time meat or fish. So the French became the kings of sauces, rich, velvety, delicious. A coverup!

From these humble-by-necessity beginnings, the French have developed what is one of the best cuisines in the world. One still wonders what would the French cuisine be today without Caterina...

Now, as in the case of fencing, to categorically state that French or Italian fencing/cuisine is much better than the other is a bit pointless. Is the right hand better than the left hand? It depends, if you are right handed or left handed. In the end you are best off if you use them both.

As a final correction, to date the French are few medals ahead in the Olympics (3 medals) I believe 111 to 109 or something like that (according to FIS) and the Italians in Athens did better. Both are good, both have a long tradition, and even though the Italians were the original Maestri, the French pupils turned out to be very, very good, like Giotto and Cimabue, though the Italian fencers are coming back!

[Stylothek]

Originally Posted by ZenEpeeist

Classical example of a language mistake: Ich bin ein Berliner.

Where's the mistake? JFK said it in a thick accent but grammatically, "ich bin ein Berliner" is allright!

[geolapins]

appreciate the feddback, Thorin. This is the first time I've done a website, I'm an IBM mainframe kinda guy.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by Stylothek

Where's the mistake? JFK said it in a thick accent but grammatically, "ich bin ein Berliner" is allright!

The problem was that "ein Berliner" wasn't how you said "a person who lives in Berlin", but how you named a type of German pastry!

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by jeff

The problem was that "ein Berliner" wasn't how you said "a person who lives in Berlin", but how you named a type of German pastry!

You would normally say: "Ich bin Berliner" to indicate that you are from Berlin. And a "Berliner" is a jelly donut--so Germans occasionally like to say, "I am a jelly donut!" It still cracks me up for some reason. "Ich bin ein Berliner" is technically correct, but most people wouldn't say it that way.

MR

[Stylothek]

Originally Posted by jeff

The problem was that "ein Berliner" wasn't how you said "a person who lives in Berlin", but how you named a type of German pastry!

True, True. Hadn't thought of that because "Berliners" are a jelly donut-speciality from the Rhineland and South Germany. And I'm originally from Hamburg*g*

[Cavatione]

Originally Posted by gladius

Tsk tsk tsk... This is why I said before to get ready for the battle of the "experts." Don't jump all over me. Your Italian is beyond reproach, but this is not the case of your English. To make sense you must be proficient in both. Italian and English have many roots in common, but the usage of words and expressions is sometime different. Patacca/patch is a case in point.

Pezza is one meaning for patch, like patacca for a fake Rolex is a usage of the word, not the only one. I was adressing my comments more to the English speaking people when I explained, with the proper example, the difference between seal and patch which is, in my opinion, the same as between patacca (colloquial) and stemma. The problem arises in the philosophy of the two people. Italians being by nature and tradition more formal, Americans much more casual in their use of words.

I found your distinction between the French and Italians in "fencing culture" interesting, though a bit shrill. Stepping away for a moment from fencing and meandering in the world of cuisine, it's interesting to consider how the world's cuisine have evolved over time.

My personal opinion is that there are three most important cuisines in the world: Chinese, Italian, and French. All three had to solve a fundamental problem: how to preserve food to feed everyone and prevent spoilage when refrigeration was not available (until the first half of the 20th century).

2. Italian

Maybe because of personality and/or geography, Italians developed a regional and seasonal cuisine. You ate what the area around you provided and you changed your diet during the season, minimizing the need to store perishable staples (meat, fish) and increasing the use of spices to counter the strong flavor of salt used for preservation. The search for spices prompted adventurers to travel to far and foreign lands (but this is another story). This is why most Italian cookbooks used to be regional and seasonal. This is why still the Italian cuisine is the most diversified.

3. French

As in the case of scherma, they learned from the Italians when the young (13 or 15 years old) Caterina de' Medici was sent off to France to marry the future king of France. The description of this voyage from Florence to Paris includes the interesting fact that 30 Italian cooks were part of her household and followed her to France to alleviate her difficult adaptation to live in such a barbarian country (in the opinion of the Florentines of the time). These 30 cooks (Italian) started what has now evolved in the French cuisine since.

But this is the interesting part. France then as is the case today, had a climate that was a bit colder than Italy, so food would not spoil as rapidly as in Italy. Furthermore, in colder climate some concotions could be made that were not so easy to produce in Italy -- like icecream (gelato) which according to some stories was invented in France by these 30 cooks to make Caterina feel better. But back to the problem of food (meat and fish) spoilage. In France they found out that using a sauce you could cover/mask the gamy flavor of past-the-prime-time meat or fish. So the French became the kings of sauces, rich, velvety, delicious. A coverup!

From these humble-by-necessity beginnings, the French have developed what is one of the best cuisines in the world. One still wonders what would the French cuisine be today without Caterina...

Now, as in the case of fencing, to categorically state that French or Italian fencing/cuisine is much better than the other is a bit pointless. Is the right hand better than the left hand? It depends, if you are right handed or left handed. In the end you are best off if you use them both.

As a final correction, to date the French are few medals ahead in the Olympics (3 medals) I believe 111 to 109 or something like that (according to FIS) and the Italians in Athens did better. Both are good, both have a long tradition, and even though the Italians were the original Maestri, the French pupils turned out to be very, very good, like Giotto and Cimabue, though the Italian fencers are coming back!

Ok, from the english speaker point of view you are right, but still, to name in italian that object (whatever it is, a "patch", a "crest" or God knows what) that you might want to put on an uniform to be recognizable, that's "stemma"

My congratulations: I would have never expectet a foreigner to know about Caterina de' Medici's story. I salute you.
But still I consider french to be all the way inferiors to Italians .

About fencing, I'd have many more example to tell about.

Anyway, on the medals:
Olympic Games
GOLD MEDALS: Italy: 43 / France: 38
SILVER MEDALS: Italy: 36 / France: 36
BRONZE MEDALS: Italy: 26 / France: 36

World Championships
GOLD MEDALS: Italy: 68
SILVER MEDALS: Italy: 65
BRONZE MEDALS Italy: 81

As you can see, in the best I can consider the french as good willed rookies

[geolapins]

Re: ein Berliner. Another example: if you say to many Americans 'I went fencing yesterday', they might reply 'How far did you have to go to build your fence?'. Ich bin im Deutschland geboren, aber habe ganz alles vergessen.

[gladius]

Cavatione, thank you. One more word of advice: never make unchecked assumptions. As we say here, if you assume you run the risk of making an *** of u and me (***-u-me).

Since you are Italian, you live in probably the most beautiful city in the world, and you know a thing or two about fencing (cheap sarcasm on my part) I wonder if you could explain what a "commissario tecnico" does in the FIS. You have Magro who is credited with the dominance of the Italian foil fencers. Bauer (a French!) who is credited with the saber success of Montano & Co. And then I believe there are the national coaches and individual coaches for each weapon. Can you explain who does what?

If this goes outside the initial thread, we can start another one dedicated to the way different countries, in particular the most successful ones, run their competitive programs so that we Americans can learn from the real Maestri.

Grazie!

[jeff]

I think it much more fun to debate "which is better, Cote de Nuit from Burgundy, or Brunello from Tuscany". After a few samples you forget the question anyway. Where's Veeco? Surely he has an opinion on the food, wine, and fencing?

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by jeff

I think it much more fun to debate "which is better, Cote de Nuit from Burgundy, or Brunello from Tuscany". After a few samples you forget the question anyway. Where's Veeco? Surely he has an opinion on the food, wine, and fencing?

I always thought that champagne was the correct wine to go with fencing....

MR