Cords & tips down?

[Iwant2bafencer]

I was just looking at some fencing images at the slc website. (They have some awesome action pics.) I noticed that the fencers had what looked like cords on their backs. As if it was something that pulled them back. What is that all about? Also in about half of the pictures the. . .I guess you could say offencer (Offence Deffence) has the tip of their swords either touching or close to touching the ground. Is there a reason for that or is it just a coinsidence?
By what I've seen this Julie Smith that you all are talking about is pretty good. I guess you all already knew that.

[DamedEscrime]

Scoring in sport fencing is done by way of an electrical light box. The cords you see are actually attached to the weapon. They run under the jacket and through the sleeve. Then are plugged into the weapon. The other end is connected to the box that contains the lights. Everytime a weapon touches the other fencer a light and buzzer go off. If it is a target area hit, the light turns red or green depending on which fencer made the touch. If the touch in off target a white light shows.
Also, the cords do not pull you back. They move freely up and dpwn the strip with you as they are on a pulley system.

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: DamedEscrime ]

[Iwant2bafencer]

Aahh! I see that totally makes sense! What about the tips down? Anything of importance on that?

[neevel]

Having the tip down can be what's called an 'invitation': making it appear that you're open to attack to some line/target sector in order to entice your opponent to try and hit you there, as a set-up for a parry-riposte or the like. You can get situations where both fencers are playing such an invitation game, seeing who can lure the other to bite at the opening first.

Sometimes fencers will also just momentarily drop the arm to rest it a bit when they're out of distance.

-Dave

[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: neevel ]

[Iwant2bafencer]

Oh! Awesome! Now it all makes sense. Thanx alot you two. oh one more question if you will. As I was still looking through their pics. I saw a move that looked quite strange. The fencer was on their toes, and had their feet together. . .I guess you could say in a Penguin style. ( >< ) Whats that about?

[Haze]

a "fleche" I think, though I am not the best person to answer this.

The fencer deliberately loses balance in order to propel themself forwards at greater speed to attack, as far as I am aware. There is only one person I have seen try this; He usually ends up careering into the doors at the end of the salle, finishing with a nice solid wood-to-beergut thud. I think it takes a while to master, and it will likely be a considerable amount of time before either you or I try it.

[Foil Girl]

yeah, I think that would be a picture caught in the start of a fleche. A fleche is a running attack, where you cross your back foot over your right, and push yourself foreward with your front foot. You should get your touch in on the person before your back foot hits the ground again, and once it does, you run off the side of the strip and past your opponent. A cool move, but should usually be only used for suprise attacks, and not a ton. Anyways, it makes for a good picture

[oiuyt]

"Fleche : Forward displacement of the body's center of gravity combined with the driving propulsion of the leading legs with the trailing leg crossing the plane of the front foot."

(from the USFA Coaches College glossary)

Basically you shift your weight forward to the point of instability, give a slight push from the rear foot to past the point of stability, then push off the front leg with a driving force that attempts to have your body going horizontal as you quickly go towards your opponent. Your back leg then whips forward to catch you before you land on your face. The touch should land on your opponent before or simultaneously with the momment that your rear foot lands. Usually followed by several running steps to regain balance. The USFA logo shows a fencer mid-fleche (the way it's supposed to be done, except for the fact that he's holding a sabre).

Correctly done a fleche should not propel one upwards, but rather directly at the opponent. That said people frequently fleche in less than ideal form, so it's possible that this is what the picture you're looking at shows. Another possibility is that it's an epeeist reacting to an attempted toe touch.

-B

[Cutter]

Also to clarify, the fleche is only allowed in foil and epee. Not in sabre.

[oiuyt]

Although the fleche is disallowed the flunge is still legal. A flunge is basically the same action but without the crossing of the rear leg to catch yourself. Flunges typically end with much more a hopping motion than a running motion.

-B

[Iwant2bafencer]

OIC! Why is it not allowed in Sabre? Man I have alot to learn!

[gesk]

Fleche was not allowed perhaps to slow the game of sabre down. As it is the game is so fast, the action of a fleche will make it harder for the ref to see.
But then I am not really a sabre fencer and I am only posting this to get my posting flag up to the next badge.

[oiuyt]

Specifically the fleche is not allowed in sabre because there is a sabre-only rule prohibiting the crossing of the legs while moving forwards.

If you ever see tapes of old-style (and we're talking 1992, so not that long ago) sabre it basically consisted exclusively of fencers running at each other. At the time, the first time a fencer left the end of the strip he/she was only warned and was replaced a meter from the end line. Sabre was just two fencers taking turns running while the opponent bombed off the back end of the strip until one of them decided that they could take a parry and riposte successfully. They were usually wrong, which is why so much time was spent running from one end of the strip to the other.

-B

[Chris]

Originally posted by Haze:
<STRONG>a "fleche" I think, though I am not the best person to answer this.

The fencer deliberately loses balance in order to propel themself forwards at greater speed to attack, as far as I am aware. There is only one person I have seen try this; He usually ends up careering into the doors at the end of the salle, finishing with a nice solid wood-to-beergut thud. I think it takes a while to master, and it will likely be a considerable amount of time before either you or I try it.</STRONG>

I am not sure the action that Wannabe was refering to was a fleche, but it doesn't sound like you have seen one, either.

Rest assured, when done properly, the person fleching is neither off-balance, nor careeNing into anything: a well-timed, skillful execution can result in the attacker coming within inches of bodily contact, and then either diverting as necessary, or even checking forward momentum completely.

It is NOT a move that a beginner should even attempt to learn until the have fenced for several years; and it can be difficult to learn, since there are so few people who do it properly, let alone, well, and fewer who can even help you learn, let alone teach it to you.

Additionally, due to a special rule in sabre regarding the crossing of the feet, many sabre fencers do a jump-forward attack which could maybe look like what he described. This should also be reserved for a more experienced fencer, as it can be very hard on your front knee, if perfomed poorly.

Fencing = Fun!

Chris

[Haze]

hey chill - I knew I should've kept quiet. As yet I only know what books tell me. The guy who told me that's what he was trying to do is an epeeist who has been fencing for 7 years. I haven't seen the pic referred to, I don't know what weapon it was with, etc. Prob if I saw the pic I would say summit different, probably along the lines of "I don't know"

[epeemike81]

Chris,

When one fleches, they are off balance to a degree. If they were in balance, they would not have the explosiveness. A fleche starts out as basically throwing yourself forward, and then swinging your back leg in front to catch yourself, but until you catch yourself, you are off balance. Look at the USFA symbol. That is a fleche. Does that fencer look balanced to you?

-m

[Iwant2bafencer]

haze if you go to the SlC website and go to images it is in there. It looks kind of like a ballet dancer going up on their toes from a squating position. Something like that. It's very hard to describe. Thanx everyone that clears it up for now. (Key word now. :P)