dirty moves in fencing

[wpotere]

My take of this is as others. Try to explain to him that he is breaking the rules.

1. Your point if in tempo....
2. Yes, cardable offense.

If he starts to argue with you, just let it go. However, if you ever have to fence him again, find someone to direct the bout. The person you should find should either be a coach or someone that has experience. Lastly, if all else fails, call a coach over and ask for clarification in front of the guy. Any of these should help to solve the problem. I could be that he thinks what he is doing is legal. I had a classmate that thought that because his light came on first that it was his point. I totally had to get the coach involved to explain parry ripost to him.

[Jarentz]

I won't look up the exact chapter and verse from the rules but it reads something like:
"Only touches scored on a fencer or their equipment count as valid"
meaning an attack which clearly hits off target on the floor, scoring table, a spectator... whatever, does not count and does not stop the action or annul subsequent touches. So the situation, in foil for example, of an attack by fencer "A" missing but hitting the floor, then a counterattack by the opponent fencer "B" scoring valid should be touch for "B"
correct?

PS I am assuming the attack in question clearly hits another object like the floor or scoring table.

[keith]

I won't look up the exact chapter and verse from the rules but it reads something like:
"Only touches scored on a fencer or their equipment count as valid"
meaning an attack which clearly hits off target on the floor, scoring table, a spectator... whatever, does not count and does not stop the action or annul subsequent touches. So the situation, in foil for example, of an attack by fencer "A" missing but hitting the floor, then a counterattack by the opponent fencer "B" scoring valid should be touch for "B"
correct?

PS I am assuming the attack in question clearly hits another object like the floor or scoring table.

Yes thats right. The off target light is treated as a remise would be so if;

A attacks
B parries
B initiates riposte
A hits (something, anything)
B hits

It is - attack parry riposte - touch for B final action of A (remise) out of time.
The bit about hitting the floor, roof or ref doesn't really matter. Only the order of the actions matters.

Only if the action of A is before the start of riposte does it time out the action of B. Although as a ref I would always be more generous in the timing when one of the fencers is hitting off target everywhere but on their opponent.

[Jarentz]

i was fencing in a club tourney on monday and my opponant was completly and utterly cheating, and as there was no ref (small class tourney) i could not complain really so ill do it now. this fencer by the way is horrible and only beat me becasuse i refuse to be cheap on unsportman-like. he would lunge or extend i would parry and his foil would always nail the ground, just before my reposte, he would yell something like "ground!" and demand a restart of the bout. firstly is this valid? and secondly is this considered dirty or cheap, and these were no metal pistes by the way

Here's the section of the rules I was referring to:

From the USFA Fencing Rules 2002

“t53 1. The referee will disregard touches which are registered as a result of actions:
- started before the word “Fence” of after the word “Halt”
- which are made on any object other than the opponent or his equipment.

A competitor who, intentionally, causes the apparatus to register a touch by placing his point on the ground or on any surface other than that of his opponent will be penalized as specified in articles t.114, t.116, t.120. “

So in the example you are giving, timing or R.O.W. are irrelevant.
Such touches do not count at all, in fact making them deliberately is a penalty.

Practically this usually only happens in Foil. In Saber there are no off-target touches. In Epee a hit on another object is going to shut out any subsequent action due to the blockage time (the above penalties would still apply of course). And depending on your referee unless it’s really obvious that the hit was not on the opponent it’s probably going to stop the action.
I’ve never seen anyone cheat this way in foil but I saw an epee bout once where one fencer would deliberately hit the tape on the side of the metallic piste right next to their opponent’s foot and get a touch.

[Bhmfencingqueen]

there's another thing. If you go to a tournament with copper strips, he can't hit the floor to stop the action.

[Kiwifencer]

Here's the section of the rules I was referring to:



A competitor who, intentionally, causes the apparatus to register a touch by placing his point on the ground or on any surface other than that of his opponent will be penalized as specified in articles t.114, t.116, t.120. “

......

Practically this usually only happens in Foil. .......................

I’ve never seen anyone cheat this way in foil but I saw an epee bout once where one fencer would deliberately hit the tape on the side of the metallic piste right next to their opponent’s foot and get a touch.

Check out the semi final bout between Behr and Petruska (?sp) at the 1984 Olympic Games. Late in the bout when Behr is leading, time is winding down and Behr is wanting to waste time, he starts throwing out lines on the command allez.. however one instance the white light shows clearly as Behr brings his foil tip up from the ground - he touched the outside of the piste before bringing the line up...