Washing an infinity lame

[dekko]

Dekko, why are you attacking Neevel? He was just trying to answer your question. Nobody is perfect and since the international fencing scene/organizing groups are so spread out when something new pops up it takes a while for people to get the word. If you want to be pissed at anyone be pissed at the FIE/USFA for not getting info out to the armorers in a mass mailing or some other type of format or for not cleaning up the rules to use new technology and methods.

US armorers don't really have anything to explain. They could ban all the current masks in use for foil if they wanted to just by following the exact letter of the rules, and it would not be their fault. The fact that they are willing to make exceptions to the letter of the rules shows that they are using good judgement/common sense and not "out to get fencers" as you seem to imply. Also, decaf can really be just as tasty as regular coffee. You should really think about it...

Trust me this is not an attack. You will know when I am attacking him and it hasn't happened yet.

Like I said I am asking questions.

I guess I am the only one who remembers 2001 JO's and how the entire sabre event got shut down because the armourers suddenly decided to only allow cuffs with the silly non-conductive material on the back of the hand. They were finally told to allow other cuffs as well so the tournament could progress. Now why would they do that? Funny thing, only Triplette had the legal cuffs and sold out as they only brought 40(?) or so. I remember Arkadi standing in the middle of the tournament committee table yelling at the guys running the sabre event in some cross of russian and english that lots of us didn't understand. Now, you are going to try and convince me that Triplette is the only fencing equipment company who read the new rules, very new at that time, and had it all figured out. Not f'n chance. The armourers almost did get attacked at that event but not here.

Which cuff will they allow this time? With or without the silly nonconductive material? Who knows. Which ever they feel like? Guess they will decide that the night before in the hotel bar and the rest of us get to find out that next morning. There have been so many rule changes in sabre and with some of the folks allowing things while others do not, it's crazy and needs to stop. I am not the only one who has a story of checker A not allowing a certain item that checker B allows. Why? Silly me, I thought there was a standard they all followed, guess I was wrong. I have had a piece of equipment checked and stamped only to hear the person say the he would pass it but it may not be allowed on strip. What? Either it's legal or not. Why the gray area?

[oiuyt]

Silly me, I thought there was a standard they all followed, guess I was wrong. I have had a piece of equipment checked and stamped only to hear the person say the he would pass it but it may not be allowed on strip. What? Either it's legal or not. Why the gray area?

Silly me, I thought there was a standard that they all followed, guess I was wrong. I have seen an attack only to hear the referee say he would allow it but it may not be allowed on another strip. What? Either it's an attack or not. Why the gray area? :)

-B :)

[DHCJr]

Dekko, this is much clearer and I agree with you. The rules M.34 state they must have elactic, but it doesn't say how. In fact, I would have wondered about the Tripplette lame, because with the non-conductive cuff, which would go around the wrist would push target area down the arm. I am really wondering about the people they get for the NAC's.

If I was a Sabre fencer I would have complained also. Does anyone know who the Armorers were at that competition?

[CvilleFencer]

Sorry I misunderstood your intent Dekko. I would have went sideways as well under the situation you descrided.

I do have a question though... I am taking up electric saber for the first time this season and I have a Leon Paul saber glove with the built in cuff. It is leather at the hand and the material starts at the wrist. Should I anticipate any problems? http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Sho...Gloves_33.html
Thanks all.

[DHCJr]

I received an e-mail from Dekko, which made things clearer.

The Armorers can require manchettes, but what do we do if a fencer says someone else brought their manchette earlier and it was passed or they were going to by one and bring it back. It is the Referee that is responsible for requiring the fencer to WEAR the manchette.

For those who have a chance to get to the Long Beach Invitational, I will have a staff that knows the rules and will apply them equally. It will also be a great place to learn.

I wish that fencers did not encounter what Dekko did. I have to agree also with CvilleFencer in that information is not gotten out from the FIE/USFA so we can be consistent. I wish our Armorer's Committee communicated more. I also shouldn't be one to complain as I have made it very clear, I never wanted to be part of the Armorer's Committee.

[neevel]

Dekko-

All I can say is that I haven't ever, at any NAC, World Cup, World Championships, or other event I've worked or been head tech at, failed an Infinity lame, nor have the armorers I was working with at those events. Donald has backed up what I explained to you-- the Infinity lames do not follow the letter of the rules, but SEMI has specifically allowed them. They have been used at World Cups and World Championships specfically for the last few years.

As for the cuffs, the problem was inconsitent information from on high. At South Bend in 2002, Ron Herman and I called Dan DeChaine for a ruling on this, and were told by Dan that SEMI's position was that the back-of-hand piece was necessary. Later that year, the three of us were at Jr/Cadet Worlds in Antalya, and Dan informed us that SEMI's position was now that elastic was acceptable, so long as it was in good, tight condition. This is the stance that all armorers I have worked directly with have taken since then.

-Dave

[DHCJr]

There was a World's recently where Infinity lames were failed, but for a much different reason. They also failed a lot of Red, Green, and Blue lames because they were too dark. The Infinity's were in that category.

M.25.3 is a rule that is stupid. What is light?

[DHCJr]

I do not have cable, so I did not get to see the Olympics fencing live, but I had someone tape it, so I have now got to see it.

This is to all, but it is based on something Dekko stated, that I just now am understanding. I believe and correct me if I am wrong, you were talking about manchettes that had lame material between the wrist and the fingers. The reason why they probably did not allow them is because the FIE disallowed them. The Armorer's can't make rules, they just follow them.

Now the reason the FIE disallowed them was because fencers in pronation were touching the lame on the back of the hand to the guard causing a lot of touches that had to be annulled and a lot of arguments slowing down the competitions.

I have seen people state why do you require manchettes, when they don't require them in Europe. Ms. Zuganis was mentioned that she is not wearing them in the Olympics. It is possible, we have a different definition for manchette. When I say manchettes are required, I am including Electric Sabre gloves. Ms. Zuganis is wearing a Infinity Electric Sabre Glove, like she has for every competition I have seen her at. At the Men's Gold Medal match, both fencers were wearing Electric Sabre Gloves.

[The Red Feather]

Just to add a little fuel to the fire: I have an Infinity foil lamé that I wash (gentle cycle, detergent, Febreeze) and air-dry every time I use it (2-3 times a week), and this weekend at a tournament it was failed: 13 Ohms up near the collar. Unfortunately, it was the only lamé I had at the time -- there's a second one in the mail at this instant, but it didn't arrive in time -- so I didn't get to fence.

Any bright ideas on how to bring it back, and more importantly, how to avoid this happening in the future? I don't think there's a buildup of anything on the threads, because I wash it regularly. Could the detergent or the Febreeze be somehow leaching the conductive stuff out of the threads?

In case you can't tell, I'm annoyed the the whole circumstance. I've never had an incorrect off-target with the failed lamé in practice and I don't have one of those lamé-tester knobs at home, so it was a rude surprise to be told my (non-metallic washable space-age) lamé didn't pass. I considered going and rinsing it off in the bathroom, but the fact is it was rinsed three days earlier in the wash, and I didn't want to be *that guy* who tries to sneak by with a wet lamé. A kind soul offered to lend me his backup lamé, but we're pretty different sizes and, because I sweat a lot, I didn't want to ruin his lamé too.

Sigh. At least I wasn't likely to have won.

[Zara_athlen]

what I have been told regarding infinity lames, is do not use soap but instead use ammonia. The soap overtime can build up residue on the lame material and prohibit conductivity. Instead spray with ammonia and just rinse with water in the shower.

[DHCJr]

Rinsing is the most important part of cleaning any lame. Soap does cause a buildup. Since I have limited long term experience with the infinity lame, I am not sure of Amonia, but if you use amonia, make sure it is diluted. That is true for all lames.

Now for your second problem, repair and testing. What testing is for is too simulate your opponent hitting you. Since they may not always hit straight on the lame tester is rounded and 500 grams to simulate hitting with the edge of the tip. If you use the tip end of a broken blade, a 500 gram weight and a ohm meter that reads ohms and not K ohms, you can do a good job of testing.

When testing is it the whole collor or just a spot. Also check just over the seam, does the resistence drop a lot when you cross over the seam. One thing that does happens when washing is the soap gets into the seams and the rinsing does not get it out. Use the rinsing as described above and also take each side of the seam and move back and forth to break up the corrosion in the seam.

You can also patch, make sure and go over the seam to get the best conduction.

[Drifter]

Neevel,

You are fighting a losing battle here. When this lame was first sold Jeff told me about the problems the armourers had with it and they at first would not pass it. Through many discussions it was finally allowed, sort of, but only with certain folks behind the table. Then they, the armourers, made it very clear they reluctantly allowed it for use at our national events but no body better try and take to an international event or they will get laughed out fo the gym. Now, we see an american win a gold medal wearing it.

Bottomline, you guys and girls have some real explaining to do. First this lame then the whole sabre cuff issue. First a cuff with no extra material on the hand was allowed then all of the sudden we have to get new cuffs with the that stupid whote material over the hand. You guys worried about the infinity lame possibly making the target area bigger due to someone sweating now you make us have a cuff that does the same thing. Companies who have their equipment made overseas have to have the special USA cuff and the real cuff. Now, finally, in the last year or so the aroumers have finally come around and allowed the cuff without the nonconductive materail to be used at national events. Why the change? Did the word get out about what was being used in international events and now you folks need to save face? Now you mention how sabre lames need to have elastic on the wrist. the Santelli sabre lame doesn't. They make a great product but, by your post, is illegal but it still gets passed. Why? You folks have some questions to answer and it seems that none of you have the guts to come forward and answer these questions. Will you be the first or will you blast me for asking the questions?

Well?

Uhh... Have you fenced in America? I've been using an Infinity lame of one form or another since geez probably 1998 or so. I've fenced in California, Illinois, Florida, Georgia, N.Carolina, S.Carolina, Virginia, Nevada, Alabama, at Divisionals, Sectionals, NAC's and Nationals, Plus in the UK and never once have I had any armourer disallow my lame.

[Zara_athlen]

Rinsing is the most important part of cleaning any lame. Soap does cause a buildup. Since I have limited long term experience with the infinity lame, I am not sure of Amonia, but if you use amonia, make sure it is diluted. That is true for all lames.

Now for your second problem, repair and testing. What testing is for is too simulate your opponent hitting you. Since they may not always hit straight on the lame tester is rounded and 500 grams to simulate hitting with the edge of the tip. If you use the tip end of a broken blade, a 500 gram weight and a ohm meter that reads ohms and not K ohms, you can do a good job of testing.

When testing is it the whole collor or just a spot. Also check just over the seam, does the resistence drop a lot when you cross over the seam. One thing that does happens when washing is the soap gets into the seams and the rinsing does not get it out. Use the rinsing as described above and also take each side of the seam and move back and forth to break up the corrosion in the seam.

You can also patch, make sure and go over the seam to get the best conduction.

Crap, I sprayed my lame with windex and then rinsed it off. Is that bad?

[DHCJr]

As I said, I don't know how the Infinity reacts to Amonia, so I would have to pass it on to someone else. But it is diluted, so I wouldn't worry and the rinse is important.

I forgot one important, hang to dry indoors.