Aladar Kogler's Psychology??

[fencerontheline]

I borrowed a book of Aladar's (Clearing the Path to Victory), and after reading most of it, I am greatly impressed.

I'd like to know- who of you have read up on your sports psychology, and among you- what do you think of Aladar's writings? What would you reccommend in conjunction?

[acaba]

I've never read Kogler's book, but I just finished "The Inner Game of Tennis". It is a really insightfull book on sports psychology.

[wflaschka]

Ahhh.... a long time ago, my first coach made me read "The Inner Game of Tennis". I don't remember anything about it, but it was good. I think I still have it somewhere.

Recently, I got "Zen in the Art of Archery" which was okay. I didn't get all the way through it, but one of my students did.

This same student recommended a very good book to me, "The New Toughness Training in Sports", by Loehr. It gets into some good stuff -- the difference between choking and tanking, how to juice up, how to 'act' with the body so that the mind plays along, how to be a tough competitor. The book also talks about competitive analysis profiles, which you can type up on the computer and fill out -- I've been doing that off and on w/ my students.

[noahz]

Winning Ugly by Brad Gilbert

The New Toughness Training for Sports by James E. Leohr

Kogler's approach is very zen-oriented, i.e. striving for inner detachment while working towards the goal at hand (fencing). Hence "Clearing the Path to Victory" implies clearing mental clutter i.e. unproductive emotions and/or negative/unclear thinking. Although his approach is proven to be effective - it is not for everybody.

I used Kogler's method for many years (and still do, to a limited extent). Personally, I found that I was spending too much time worrying about my emotions and trying to acheive that perfect mental state than I was thinking about actual fencing. If I didn't feel I was "in the zone," I would become distracted from the actual bout - thinking about my breathing rather than my strategy for the next touch.

By contrast, Gilbert's book is much more exoteric. Unlike many other books on the subject, it addresses subjects specific to adversarial sports - i.e. how to handle your opponent's attempts to disrupt your mental state - such as gamesmanship or even cheating. Gilbert teaches his reader how organize their thoughts and win without being in a "zen state" - an important, often overlooked, skill.

My favorite passage from the book:

5 percent of the time your opponent is in the zone and you won't win. 5 percent of the time, you're in the zone and you can't lose. But the other 90 percent of the time it's up for grabs; there is a way to win. You've just got to figure out what it is.

Of course, if you can increase the frequency of achieving the "zen state," it will help your fencing. However, what I like about Gilbert's approach is that he teaches you how to win during those 90% times when neither you your opponent are in such a state - in my opinion, MUCH more important.

Kogler also writes that fencers who acheive peak performance all share a common experience: while in the "zone," they all report focusing 100% on the strategy of their fencing bout. However, whereas Kogler's method advocates using mental training to acheive that state of 100% concentration, Gilbert emphasizes making a habit of focusing on the strategy of the match, no matter what your mental state.

That is what I liked about Gilbert's approach - his is a more direct approach and seems more "natural." You shouldn't have to be "in the zone" to be focusing on the bout's strategy - it seems like a method of organizing one's thoughts and being able to recognize certain tactical situations is just as effective. Of course, some people find that tactics come naturally and need more help controlling their emotions. Everyone has to find the method that works best for them.

Additionally, Kogler seems to emphasize visualization using Autogenic Training-based techniques. During the meditation session, the fencer recalls the bout in question and reviews the strategy. Gilbert does not do this - no special state is needed to recall bouts or review mistakes made therein. You simply do it. Again, much more natural and practical - but perhaps not too useful for fencers that have difficulty accurately recalling the details of their bouts (for example, their opponent's name - more common than you'd think).

A bit on the book's title. "Winning Ugly" in fencing might be (in epee): knowing that your opponent always starts pushing really hard when they fence on your end of the strip. Or maybe they can't handle "junk" (unconventional attacks) and get frustrated if you're not fencing "clean." Perhaps your opponent will cause intentional corps-a-corps in a close bout, so you should be ready for it and not let it shake you. Point is: Gilbert emphasizes anticipating these scenarios rather than trying to get "in the zone" before every single match you fence.

Toughness Training is a good book for people who have confidence problems, problems with "choking," difficulty getting "psyched" or otherwise have mental issues. However, I found the "self-help" tone of the book a bit off-putting. Again: not for everybody.

[Grasshopper]

Here is what Goloubitski says about mental training. As suggested above, he says that the technical, tactical and physical aspects come first - the mental (being in the zone) stuff happens afterwards.

+++++++++++++++
SG -

A fencer cannot win without being ready technically,tactically and physically. All these 3 factors have the same importance in striving for victory. Overall, mental strength is the decisive factor in any sport. This is especially true when you are competing at the higher levels.

When you can do whatever you want (technically,tactically and physically) with your opponent on the strip, the role of mental strength becomes crutial. Without motivation and winning mentality all your fencing know-how is useless.
++++++++++++++

So in reality, it isn't "Use the force Luke", so much as "Pick up your lightsaber and do drills, Luke, or Darth will kick your arse, even if the force is with you."

[sabreur]

Here is what Goloubitski says about mental training. As suggested above, he says that the technical, tactical and physical aspects come first - the mental (being in the zone) stuff happens afterwards.

+++++++++++++++
SG -

A fencer cannot win without being ready technically,tactically and physically. All these 3 factors have the same importance in striving for victory. Overall, mental strength is the decisive factor in any sport. This is especially true when you are competing at the higher levels.

When you can do whatever you want (technically,tactically and physically) with your opponent on the strip, the role of mental strength becomes crutial. Without motivation and winning mentality all your fencing know-how is useless.
++++++++++++++

So in reality, it isn't "Use the force Luke", so much as "Pick up your lightsaber and do drills, Luke, or Darth will kick your arse, even if the force is with you."

Sabreur say: Grasshopper sees the moon more and more these days...

And that ain't a no-pants joke...

MR

[Grasshopper]

Sabreur say: Grasshopper sees the moon more and more these days...

And that ain't a no-pants joke...

MR

Cheers

I've seen too many guys go down the road of "I don't need to practice technique and tactics if I am the Zen-Grand Master of Sports Psychology". They become emotional wrecks about their fencing and seem to look for shortcuts to win. If they get beat, their first thought is not "I got hit because my opponent did X technique and I did Y", it's "I got hit because I was not in the zone today or because I was psyched-out by my opponent or because I was stressed out from work."
The way we reflect on our results has huge bearing on our improvement.

[fencerontheline]

Cheers
The way we reflect on our results has huge bearing on our improvement.

I agree entirely with what you and Sergey (G) have said on the matter. That being said- I've been working very hard at bettering the physical, tactical and athletic aspects of my fencing extensively, and I'm just adding the psychology in addition- in order to help me get even better in a quicker manner.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Winning Ugly by Brad Gilbert

The New Toughness Training for Sports by James E. Leohr

Kogler's approach is very zen-oriented, i.e. striving for inner detachment while working towards the goal at hand (fencing). Hence "Clearing the Path to Victory" implies clearing mental clutter i.e. unproductive emotions and/or negative/unclear thinking. Although his approach is proven to be effective - it is not for everybody.

I used Kogler's method for many years (and still do, to a limited extent). Personally, I found that I was spending too much time worrying about my emotions and trying to acheive that perfect mental state than I was thinking about actual fencing. If I didn't feel I was "in the zone," I would become distracted from the actual bout - thinking about my breathing rather than my strategy for the next touch.

By contrast, Gilbert's book is much more exoteric. Unlike many other books on the subject, it addresses subjects specific to adversarial sports - i.e. how to handle your opponent's attempts to disrupt your mental state - such as gamesmanship or even cheating. Gilbert teaches his reader how organize their thoughts and win without being in a "zen state" - an important, often overlooked, skill.

My favorite passage from the book:
Of course, if you can increase the frequency of achieving the "zen state," it will help your fencing. However, what I like about Gilbert's approach is that he teaches you how to win during those 90% times when neither you your opponent are in such a state - in my opinion, MUCH more important.

Kogler also writes that fencers who acheive peak performance all share a common experience: while in the "zone," they all report focusing 100% on the strategy of their fencing bout. However, whereas Kogler's method advocates using mental training to acheive that state of 100% concentration, Gilbert emphasizes making a habit of focusing on the strategy of the match, no matter what your mental state.

That is what I liked about Gilbert's approach - his is a more direct approach and seems more "natural." You shouldn't have to be "in the zone" to be focusing on the bout's strategy - it seems like a method of organizing one's thoughts and being able to recognize certain tactical situations is just as effective. Of course, some people find that tactics come naturally and need more help controlling their emotions. Everyone has to find the method that works best for them.

Additionally, Kogler seems to emphasize visualization using Autogenic Training-based techniques. During the meditation session, the fencer recalls the bout in question and reviews the strategy. Gilbert does not do this - no special state is needed to recall bouts or review mistakes made therein. You simply do it. Again, much more natural and practical - but perhaps not too useful for fencers that have difficulty accurately recalling the details of their bouts (for example, their opponent's name - more common than you'd think).

A bit on the book's title. "Winning Ugly" in fencing might be (in epee): knowing that your opponent always starts pushing really hard when they fence on your end of the strip. Or maybe they can't handle "junk" (unconventional attacks) and get frustrated if you're not fencing "clean." Perhaps your opponent will cause intentional corps-a-corps in a close bout, so you should be ready for it and not let it shake you. Point is: Gilbert emphasizes anticipating these scenarios rather than trying to get "in the zone" before every single match you fence.

Toughness Training is a good book for people who have confidence problems, problems with "choking," difficulty getting "psyched" or otherwise have mental issues. However, I found the "self-help" tone of the book a bit off-putting. Again: not for everybody.

From my perpective on "zen" or more suitably Buddhist practices.

Even though I haven't had a chance to read either books, I would guard against using the word "natural." In meditation, or using "zen-like" techniques as you put it, the more consistant and continual effort you put into it, the less difficult it becomes. It, too, is a skill. There is a difference between concentrating on breathing and letting it become all-encompassing versus "worrying" about x/y/z. You very well could have been flip-flopping between "right" and "wrong" focus (aka, the intention of the doer and his or her relationship to the exercise).

Also, regarding the 5%, 5%, 90%. Part of the "zen-like" state is not to grasp for the that zone state (wrong focus). One must accept the situation at hand (similar to Gilbert) but then continue to drop the negative (and positive, as positive self-views are unhelpful states too...it actually perpetuates the negative, as they are connected and cyclical with eachother. Plainly, it would be called a pattern) and get back to "right" focus.

I'm also talking simply about the processes of the mind and seeing when the red flags (positive and negative, as they both get in the way) jump up. The task is identifying the red flags quicker and quicker and then dissolving them more quickly and effectively to the point that the zone like state is always there. However, if there is wrong intention/wrong relationship those red flags (a need to know/worry about what could be wrong) then it actually causes more problems. But at the same time, a person who has an aversion to looking at a situation and possible red flags is also causing continual problems for themselves and will not peel away those things to help him or her improve.

I believe, from what you have said that these two authors each only have half of the equation. That's how I think of most sports psychologists, anyway. They have half of it, but not the other half.

[Victor]

I have to agree with the books noted above.

I'd suggest starting with Gallwey and Kogler (to develop an appreciation for the funky emotional learning stuff going on inside), but then putting those books aside and topping off with Gilbert (if you aren't lucky enough to have a good coach, reading his latest book actually helps you imagine yourself as your own best advisor).

[D'Artag-NOT]

My coach recommended The Inner Game of Tennis a few months ago and it has had a major positive impact on my fencing. It goes into specifics of how your body learns physical skills and how to keep your conscious, critical mind out of the way of that learning. As a formerly non-athletic person who's always lived a lot in my head, I really needed that clear explanation of how to let your body learn.

[Christopher J Umbs]

I'm going to add "The Warrior Athelete" by Dan Millman. A lot of Dan's later work gets too touchy-feely for me, but I've found that very solid. There used to be an article on the American Fencer archives about Lasker and strategy in Chess by Harold Hayes (IIRC) that had a huge impact on my tactics when I was younger.

Chris

[bjacobs]

Aladar has weekly mental training sessions with us at Columbia during the season. I haven't read his books, but if they're similar to the lectures and exercises he leads us in, I'd recommend them. The sort of things we go over are: breathing exercises, meditation, visualization, autogenic training (a sort of self hypnosis) creating competition routines, creating and using triggers during bouts. Despite what people have said above, there doesn't seem to be any zen influence to what he does, though he is very into yoga.

What's the use of mental training? The idea is to be able to produce your best game when you need it. So of course it's useless if you haven't spent hours and years working hard to develop skills and tactics and athleticism. But a lot of people who do have high skill levels often perform extremely inconsistently at tournaments and competitions, and for them mental training is potentially useful.

[nahouw]

Kogler also writes that fencers who acheive peak performance all share a common experience: while in the "zone," they all report focusing 100% on the strategy of their fencing bout. However, whereas Kogler's method advocates using mental training to acheive that state of 100% concentration, Gilbert emphasizes making a habit of focusing on the strategy of the match, no matter what your mental state.

That is what I liked about Gilbert's approach - his is a more direct approach and seems more "natural." You shouldn't have to be "in the zone" to be focusing on the bout's strategy - it seems like a method of organizing one's thoughts and being able to recognize certain tactical situations is just as effective. Of course, some people find that tactics come naturally and need more help controlling their emotions. Everyone has to find the method that works best for them.

I think that Kogler and Gilbert have much the same approach, just that they look at it at either side of the coin -- like you said, it is up to the individual to find which method works best for them.

One can control their emotions enough to start from a place in which they detach their emotions from the competition, looking at it as just an exercise to pursue, and are calm enough that they can then only focus on strategy; others can have emotions too turbulent to control, so that the continual focus on the strategy is what keeps their emotions in check.

Either way, the intention is clear -- keep the emotions out of it, keep focused on the strategy, and that will get you to winning.

I think that Kogler approaches it from controlling the mind aspect because fencing bouts are so short, and you need for your emotions to be reeled in quickly. Gilbert approaches it from the strategy standpoint because tennis matches are hours long, and if you start to get into an emotional spiral, if you bring yourself back to the strategy, you can reel your emotions back in and still have plenty of time to get the match back.

[noahz]

Either way, the intention is clear -- keep the emotions out of it, keep focused on the strategy, and that will get you to winning.

My personal experience has been that emotional reactions can be beneficial and even necessary. I have seen many very successful fencers who express the full range of emotions during their bouts - joy, humor, rage, frustration, etc. - rather than beeing in an emotionless "detached state." Additionally, I found that I enjoyed the sport much more when I allowed myself to experience my natural emotions. There is nothing wrong with experiencing emotions during a match. Realizing one's full potential requires full expression.

Last night I was reflecting on the utility of Autogenic Training. I realized that I stopped using it because I could never visualize an entire bout from start to finish - I just couldn't get myself to "buy" it. However, I still find the method useful for visualizing specific technical actions (i.e. executing a feint deceive properly).

Scarlet_woman had some interesting observations on the practice of Zen. Striving for detachment is itself faulty application, it takes practice, etc. (on the other hand, this seems paradoxical). I think my point was that I discovered that my pre-bout perparation was more productive analyzing practical matters, such as tactics.

That said, I highly recommend that fencers investigate Dr. Kogler's book and decide how much of it they want to use.

[scarlet_woman156k]

People I think get the idea that a buddhist/zen way of things is to be completely devoid of anything. Which, from what I've been taught, is completely contrary to what it actually is. It's about the *relationship* to the environment that is important, and it can often change (aka skillful means).

Sports psychologists say it themselves when you cannot force the "zone like" state. The grasping (wrong relationship) keeps it further from reach...just like that in Buddhism. It's actually reaching a meditative state, believe it or not. However, everytime I've experienced it it's not been exactly the same, it's always different. Sometimes it's more bodily (instinct), sometimes it's more mind (clarity), sometimes it's evenly distributed in both mind and body. Sometimes it's fueled by anger (this can be a tricky state...it can go downward real fast if one does not control the anger energy properly and allow it to flow evenly), sometimes the energy is more instinctual like an animal.

I've actually experienced states on the strip where I feel like the metal strip is actually an extension of my body. There's no doubt there is Chi involved w/that. You can actually feel the energy cycling up the back and down the front of your body. It's very surreal. As much as I prefer any amount of the zone-like state, it is something that takes a lot of "detached" practice (right relationship) in order for it to be able to happen naturally. Other distractions that take away from it: worry, doubt, fatigue, laziness, ego (any ill will toward the opponent), fear, confusion, lack of focus, lack of refocusing.

Sorry I've been on such a tangent in this thread, but people rarely talk about this stuff on this site, and it's basically one of major elements in my fencing that has given me the successes I've had in this sport.