Romankov/Italian body feints= ideal preparation of the attack?

[fencerontheline]

I took a lesson with Sasha Romankov last week (as I've been doing for about a year), and he did something very different, and I'm wondering about it.

He started using body feints to get me to react backwards (in lessons, he tries to have me react to only actualy actions, and not flinch at feints), as I've seen him do in video (his "stuttering clown attack"). After seeing that, and reacting to the smallest of body movements, I've started to think about body feints and I've started to do some homework (in addition to footwork, bladework, and reading up on sport's psychology... ::Blah:

So, I've been reading up on the Italian fencers, and watching what video of theirs I can scrounge up, and it seems like Sanzo and Vanni use a tremendous amount of body feints as often and as well as Sasha does/did. I've been wondering- Do you guys think that these body feints are part of the necessary preparation for the fairly simple attacks that these fencers seem to win consistantly with? If not that- then what is the preparation that makes attacks like Sanzo's, Sasha's and Vanni's attacks so unstoppable?

[keith]

As you said most fencers who are well trained have it beaten into them (sometimes literally) not to react to the feint. Only the finally scoring action by the opponent should draw a response. So you have to keep making your feints deeper and deeper against good fencers, to the point where the line between feint and attack is blurred completely. So how then do you assess your opponents defensive structure? If you can only draw these actions by attacking you must have a marvellous open eye disengage - or ESP.

So body feints etc become a key way of trying to trick your opponent into revealing aspects of their defense prior to the launch of your actual attack.

[wflaschka]

Do you guys think that these body feints are part of the necessary preparation for the fairly simple attacks that these fencers seem to win consistantly with? If not that- then what is the preparation that makes attacks like Sanzo's, Sasha's and Vanni's attacks so unstoppable?

I think that body feints are not a necessary preparation for attacks, in general. For every Romankovy body-feinter, there are many high-level fencers who don't seem to use body feints at all.

For the Italians, Romankov, and Michael Marx (there's video of him in the threads), the body feint is/was very useful, and perhaps even integral to their preparations. The Italians also make their attacks difficult to defend against by using interesting tempo -- there's that feature article on this website about Italian Tempo. It goes a long way towards explaining how they can land simple attacks against very high-level fencers.

[reposte]

I have trained under some of the people who surrounded Romankov (at least as a wondering teen at the same club) and was always told that he himself was very composed as a defender, using iron nerves too parry only the last movement of the blade (which his clip against Koch asserts in a way) and sometimespaid dearly.

Were is he now? People around me believe he's languishing away at Byeloruss?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by reposte

Were is he now? People around me believe he's languishing away at Byeloruss?

wait, what? seriously? fencerontheline just said where.
he's right here

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by reposte

Were is he now? People around me believe he's languishing away at Byeloruss?

He took the summer off to visit his family in Bellarus, and he's at FAW now. He's a little homesick though... I don't blame him.

Anyhow- I agree with your assertion about the iron defense. One of the main things we've been working a great deal on has been not reacting to feints, and parrying only when the attack is real and the distance is right. I'm still curious about the body feints though. I wonder if there's a 'proper' way to do it... or if it is fencer specific.

Thanks a bunch for your reply guys(btw- reposte- who've you trained under that knows Sasha? Doubtlessly, mentioning these names will bring back fond reccolections)

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

I'm still curious about the body feints though. I wonder if there's a 'proper' way to do it... or if it is fencer specific.

As far as I know, there's no single "proper" way to do a body feint. There is no bodyfeinting lore that has been passed down from maestro to maestro through the ages.

For a lot of fencers, it's hard enough to keep the body still while they do footwork and handwork. They leave the salle, quit fencing, or simply never get far enough to start putting the spin back into the body. I've been noticing this a lot about fencing: You learn the basics, and then when you get good enough, you are ready to forget the basics. Start your lunge with the hand first; keep your wrist in a fixed position; retreat with parries; don't move your torso. All these rules get over-ruled when the fencer learns enough. The problem is that so many people don't stick around for the good stuff, or their coaches don't believe fencers should ever be "let out of the cage" like this. But watch Golubitsky's sense of Right of Way -- it's not rigid and it's not procedural, his feeling for RoW is as deep as an eskimo's feeling for snow. His application of RoW reflects that.

Romankov's body feints are the same way. As with most things in fencing, it's not the thing that hits the opponent, it's the change in thing. It's not speed, not form, not tactics -- it's the change in speed, form, tactics, which scores points. Romankov's form is upright and precise, until he decides it shouldn't be. The opponent sees a sudden change in Romankov's format, and immediately believes that something important is occuring.

Romankov's body feints seem to derive from the hips -- he's not going to slouch his backbone if he can help it. His whole torso rocks as if there's a ball-joint where his spine meets his hipbones. While it changes his shape in the opponent's perspective, it doesn't move his shoulders or his arm out of true. Whether he's upright, or a little tilted, his shoulder is relaxed and he gets to use all the good Russian handwork stuff. When the shoulder bunches, or tenses, or the body is twisted -- then the big muscles in the back start working, and the shoulder tries to take over extensions, and everything goes out of whack. But this doesn't happen for Romankov.

From what I've seen and remember of Michael Marx, he is similar. Like Romankov, he keeps his back straight, and this helps to keep his body feints away from his legs. You'll see some body feints from fencers which even cause the knees to shift laterally -- if you make sure the feints don't go below the hips, your legs remain useful for movement.

The Italians -- I'd have to watch them again, but iirc they are more fluid with the feints. They don't care if the feint throws off their position, any more than they care if they end up on the floor after the action. Some feints seem to originate from the ribcage, where they raise the chest -- this would give the appearence of a very high-line attack (flick). Where Romankov would move the whole torso, the Italians move the chest while leaving the shoulders where they are.

Another body feint, which I use, but I can't name any high-level fencers that I've seen do it -- bringing the back shoulder around. You're advancing or marching towards the opponent, and you need a reaction out of them. Suddenly bring the back shoulder forward (and let it go back, don't keep it there). The opponent will see your target suddenly double. It won't look like a juicy target to them. Instead, it will look like you're going to take a run at them. They'll make some sort of emergency reaction, and so it's a good way to get the opening-up process started.

So I can think of 3 main types of body feints (I might think of more when I press submit). The bob from the hips, the thrust from the chest, and the back shoulder.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

I took a lesson with Sasha Romankov last week (as I've been doing for about a year), and he did something very different, and I'm wondering about it.

He started using body feints to get me to react backwards (in lessons, he tries to have me react to only actualy actions, and not flinch at feints), as I've seen him do in video (his "stuttering clown attack"). After seeing that, and reacting to the smallest of body movements, I've started to think about body feints and I've started to do some homework (in addition to footwork, bladework, and reading up on sport's psychology... ::Blah:

So, I've been reading up on the Italian fencers, and watching what video of theirs I can scrounge up, and it seems like Sanzo and Vanni use a tremendous amount of body feints as often and as well as Sasha does/did. I've been wondering- Do you guys think that these body feints are part of the necessary preparation for the fairly simple attacks that these fencers seem to win consistantly with? If not that- then what is the preparation that makes attacks like Sanzo's, Sasha's and Vanni's attacks so unstoppable?

First of all, kudos to you for working so hard to improve your fencing - sounds like you are destined for great things! Also, you seem to have picked up a common element between Romankov's fencing and the Italians' fencing that most people would miss (their styles "look" completely different).

In answer to your question, to me, Romankov's body feints are no more than "tempo changes" described in the Italian Tempo article. Just as you see in the Italian marches, the body is always going forward, but the speed of the motion is constantly changing.

I think the most fundamental difference (and perhaps what puts Romankov in a league of his own), is that while the Italian's have complete absence of blade during their advances, Romankov frequently put his blade in line of fire and make nice point feints.

Romankov is one of the very very rare fencers who mastered both tempo and classical fencing style. In my opinion, this is why he was so unbeatable.

I would be most interested in hearing what Romankov himself thinks about tempo changes in foil...

[pkt]

Thank you Grasshopper.
Now that reference's been made to gung-fu, how about Bruce Lee's body feint which IMHO also gives him a better depth perception of his opponent.

PK

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by pkt

Thank you Grasshopper.
Now that reference's been made to gung-fu, how about Bruce Lee's body feint which IMHO also gives him a better depth perception of his opponent.

PK

Despite my screen name, I know nothing about martial arts.