Business Plan

[oiuyt]

The USFCA has a credentialling and degree system (recognized by the Academie d'Armes Internaionale (AAI), as are the programs in France, etc.). More credentialling than training in the US case.

San Jose State has a military fencing master's program I believe.

There are a few more out there, mostly through groups that are extreme classicist or historical (or some combination).

Used to be a program based out of Cornell in the 70's that turned out a number of top coaches. Don't know when that stopped and don't have much more information about it. Perhaps some of our more experienced posters can provide some insight?

-B :)

[veeco]

I am aware of some of these programs you quoted oiuyt, however, the difference that I was making as was not the lack of these programs, rather the lack of need of credentials to open a fencing club.

Theoretically, I could be the biggest snake oil salesman on the face of the earth, have no knowledge in fencing whatsoever, and still open a "fencing salle" in the US, and get paid by students. It certainly wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, however, what would happen when one of my students gets injured during practice, because he wasn't wearing the proper equipment? Or what happens if one my students injures themselves during a lesson I am giving to them? Who is responsible? Having at least some sort of degree in physical education or fencing, can help avoid this kind of problems: you will learn how to conduct a warm up routine correctly, what the safety measures are, etc.

The bonus of a fencing degree is that you might actually learn something useful fencing related and be able to add pedagogic elements specific to fencing to your repertoire of tools and techniques used to teach.

[mlr2fence]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I heard Wilt Chamberlain is too "busy" to coach or do anything else.

The point is: He was a star player but only coached one season. Obviously an example of a top athlete that didn't carry it over into coaching--whether thru lack of interest or talent in coaching. He certainly had the opportunity to coach.

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by veeco

ITheoretically, I could be the biggest snake oil salesman on the face of the earth, have no knowledge in fencing whatsoever, and still open a "fencing salle" in the US, and get paid by students.

Funny, isn't that what happened in England in the 1500's? With all the so-called Italian Fencing Masters?

What makes a good coach is not necessarily what makes a good athelete, and vice versa. Look at professional sports, or sports in general. How many of the successful coaches were star atheletes? It is actually a rarity that a super good athelete makes a great coach. While atheletes can execute the moves, etc., they don't necessarily know why or how they do it.

The best thing to do as a coach is to recognize your own limitations. I know that I'm never going to develop an olympic level fencer, but I can start them out on the right path and take them to a point to be able to hand them off to someone who can take them the rest of the way.

But we digress from the real topic of this thread and that is a business plan for building a sucessful Salle. Good solid business practices are a must along with realizing you are in a service business and that customer service is paramount to your success. Also, do not try to overreach your ability. Don't promise to make olympians from day one. Build on your successes. Also have a plan for expansion by setting goals. Project your growth and decide at which point you need to get out of your donated space to one of your own and when to start moving into other areas and "franchising" yourself. Also, have a plan to grow your own coaches as well as other assistants. Look to the community for areas where you can contribute. Wheelchair fencing? Working with underprivaleged kids (Westbrook Foundation model), etc.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by veeco

Theoretically, I could be the biggest snake oil salesman on the face of the earth, have no knowledge in fencing whatsoever, and still open a "fencing salle" in the US, and get paid by students.

Heck, it might even HELP business-wise. Look at all of the diploma mill Eastern Martial Arts dojos that are the exclusive source for super-secret discipline XXX.

-B :)

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Heck, it might even HELP business-wise. Look at all of the diploma mill Eastern Martial Arts dojos that are the exclusive source for super-secret discipline XXX.

-B

Yeah, and as I said before, this is no different than the supposed Masters that came from Italy to England it the 1500's and East Bloc "masters" that came here in the 80's. The martial arts thing is centuries old. Come to my school/dojo/salle and I'll teach you all the secrets yada yada, and so the kid's parents pay tons of money for the kid to "earn" his black belt, and the little s**t goes out and gets his a** beat to a bloody pulp.

The business model relys on a HUGE revolving door, which is OK. You have to sift through a ton of rock to find a diamond. Keep digging. But understand that you have to constantly market yourself.

[edew]

The example of Peter Westbrook as a great fencer turned coach is more an argument in my favor, rather than RL's. Peter, while head of the Peter Westbrook Foundation (duh), doesn't coach many of his students. He knows his coaching limitations and doesn't coach anything more than the beginning level. He fences with the top fencers, he gives advice and maybe help some fencers practice and perfect certain actions. But for the most part, he isn't the head coach. Shimshovich and Gelman are the primary coaches. Even Sankofa and Mormando do more coaching than Peter does.

[Joe biebel]

I would like to thank the people that have posted and especially the folks that were kind enough to send spreadsheets and "hard" information regarding the business aspect of a salle. I find all of the banter about what it takes to be a good coach interesting, but not particularly germaine to the subject.

What I am interested in most, is getting a critical mass of students (currently, I'm looking toward middle school children as the target audience) to eventually create a fencing club for, and to make an opportunity for "good" coaches to work with.

All of the coaching skill in the world will not make a salle "work", here in the United States, without a monetarily healthy organization behind it. So, information or opinion about what a good coach is, is secondary in my opinion. Marketing strategy, business models, and numbers and business talent and "people talent" will create a healthy salle that can become the springboard for atheletes and coaches.

Really though, I think it is all about opportunity. There will eventually be "elite" fencers developed from any good program. But we are starting at the bottom of the pyramid. How many occasional, or recreational, or class fencers will it take to support a salle?

I would very much like to see things like floor plans, monthly ledgers and marketing strategies that various salles have developed. I'm hoping that the fencing community will be open in this regard.

I have never believed the naysayers, the people that have maintained that "you can not make a living or a good living from fencing." In the last two years I have had the opportunity to meet numerous individuals that have proved this old adage to be wrong. I see fencing as a vast untapped opportunity in this country.

I believe in sport. I believe that the lessons you learn from sport are important. With schools consistantly reducing "paid for" athletic opportunities, children and parents have had to look beyond schools for these important lessons. Children do not get classes in sportsmanship, effort, integrity, healthy competition, tactics and all of the intangibles that sport can help to develope. This is where the opportunity is. Both for the fencing club business and for the students.

Thanks, keep the information and ideas coming

Best Regards,
Joe Biebel

[edew]

I'm right with you there, Joe. See you at the Richmond Veteran NAC.

[MikeHarm]

Fencing to me is where karate was before TKD came in with a solid buisiness plan and marketing. It was similar, a lot of small clubs with hands on work and private lessons, something you could barely make a living on. Now you see TKD everywhere, making gobs of money.. other clubs without a business model.. poor and struggling to break even mostly like always.

My thoughts on it are:

Private lessons and cheap floor fees are good for marketing, not so much high profits. The marketing angle is drawing in the competitive fencers and high raters to wow the newbies who want to fence like them and keep people coming back.

Classes for newbies and kids make the most money.

I've heard before a local fencing coach tell me that he didn't want women fencers in his club, they just hang around and gossip and didn't add much to a club or do well competing.

I don't think thats true, but whatever you think of women's fencing abilities I think that they help a club out a lot financially and in other ways even though their numbers tend to be lower.

From what I've seen a lot of women will dedicate themselves to running things more than guys will, they like teaching more (especially with kids which are great for profits)than the men do on average, they bring in more family members/friends than the guys, and if they're not driven off by letting folks harass them they seem to have a lot longer longevity as far as continuing to come back again and again year after year on average making your club steady coin.

[JEC]

How do you guys like this (from a true fencing website and a club that we used to belong):

BIRTHDAY PARTY SPECIAL!

Book a fencing birthday party for October or November for up to 12 children for only $60.

This includes 2 coaches, 1 hour of instruction and fencing and 1 hour of use of the facility. Contact ________ for more information phone or email.


Over past 3 years, each birthday party that I have done for my kids is over 200. This is cheap and might get a few kids into the stream of beginners.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Joe biebel

I find all of the banter about what it takes to be a good coach interesting, but not particularly germaine to the subject.

Joe Biebel

Sorry for the 'threadjack', RL found one of my buttons and pushed.

I don't have any concrete information such as marketing plans or spread sheets, but I do have some avenues to explore that I haven't seen mentioned here.

1) Setting up as a non-proffit corp. we're looking into this and I know of at least one PNW salle, Salle Auriol Seattle, that is set up this way.

2) Wheelchair fencing. We're also looking into this as a way to extend membership, community outreach and maybe have new venues available to us.

3) Chairitible(sp) Gaming. I don't know what laws apply where you live, but some states allow sports organizations to get in on this.

These things are all tied into the non-profit status, at least where I live. This is the path my club is following.

[SwordSoul]

would you have Mike Tyson as your boxing coach? (i certainly would NOT, however, i don't discount that he couldn't give me a tip on how to not get utterly blasted in the ring on a move here and there)

----
""Heck, it might even HELP business-wise. Look at all of the diploma mill Eastern Martial Arts dojos that are the exclusive source for super-secret discipline XXX""

AGREED!

[fluidfencer]

Joe,

Part of my difficulty in answering your questions is that the questions are too vague, and I can understand that. You have to start by knowing where you are going before you can figure out how to get there.

Our club balances highly competitive fencers with those who just fence for fun. We let people know both goals are valid and provide a way to do that. We are focused on growth (in very specific terms) in order to reach certain financial goals, so that we can accomplish certain things as a club. While the plan has changed somewhat over time, the fundamentals have not, and it has taken almost six years.

I would be glad to send our financial statements for the last five years, but what good would it do if you didn't have the same goals and decided to go about things in a different way? I could say that our average revenue per student is about $83/month and our student retention rate is 20-something percent after two years, but I'm not sure how that would help.

Either on this thread or another, I suggested that the first step is to look at a BUNCH of club websites and see how they do things. Try to find clubs in similar markets compared to yours (a business plan in NYC is vastly different than one in Little Rock, Arkansas). See how they schedule classes, what fees they charge, then email the clubs you like to get specific information. Ask around to find out who is doing something similar to what you want to do. Michael Massik, Eric Dew and many others know a lot of clubs, but you have to provide a good description of what you are looking for.

I/We don't know what you are capable of doing with respect to time commitments, which has a huge impact on scheduling and how many students you can handle and income and long-term growth. Do you have a life that allows you to never miss a class? If I am a paying parent, you darn well better be there every class. What are your personal income goals? Are there other fencing clubs in your market?

Are you a detail person? If not, you better find someone who is because there are quite a few compliance issues, both fencing and non-fencing in nature. Is you personality a good one for marketing, or do you need help? With what resources do you begin, in terms of money and people and a place to fence?

Getting the right answers has a lot to do with asking the right questions, to the right people. I will bend over backwards to help if our club is a model for what you want to do. http://www.fencingclub.org

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by JEC

How do you guys like this (from a true fencing website and a club that we used to belong):

BIRTHDAY PARTY SPECIAL!

Book a fencing birthday party for October or November for up to 12 children for only $60.

This includes 2 coaches, 1 hour of instruction and fencing and 1 hour of use of the facility. Contact ________ for more information phone or email.


Over past 3 years, each birthday party that I have done for my kids is over 200. This is cheap and might get a few kids into the stream of beginners.

Seems like whoever is organizing it should raise prices.

-B :)

[wl02ac]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

JEC, could you email to me, also? I've been kicking around the idea of opening a salle...

Isn't there already 2 academies in Grand Rapids?

[MikeHarm]

There is a club in Michigan I know of that does the birthday party bit. Looks like fun.

Originally Posted by JEC

How do you guys like this (from a true fencing website and a club that we used to belong):

BIRTHDAY PARTY SPECIAL!

Book a fencing birthday party for October or November for up to 12 children for only $60.

This includes 2 coaches, 1 hour of instruction and fencing and 1 hour of use of the facility. Contact ________ for more information phone or email.


Over past 3 years, each birthday party that I have done for my kids is over 200. This is cheap and might get a few kids into the stream of beginners.

[Mergs]

Joe,

Check out the 2003-2004 USFA CD for Clubs and Members. It has a section devoted to starting clubs and businesses. Doesn't have a lot of the kind of detail you are looking for, but it is another source of ideas.

[JEC]

Originally Posted by MikeHarm

There is a club in Michigan I know of that does the birthday party bit. Looks like fun.

Mike,

I think being a bargain would bring some people to check out the sport. Out of the 12 kids, perhaps one or two become regulars. The issue is to have a large number of kids getting through the salle. Then, you can select the ones that seem better or persistent and groom them into competitive fencers.

JEC

[Mergs]

Not meaning to poke at a dead horse, well, yeah, maybe I am, but check out usatoday.com under the College Football section. 5 Division 1-A coaches never played football, but have built sucessful programs.