Business Plan

[Schiavona]

Talking to RL or talking to a frog, is there a difference?

[ReverseLunge]

What would you know about good coaching. Like there are any in Alaska. LOL

[edew]

There are several ways to demonstrate a ballestra lunge. Show a video, perform it yourself, get someone else to do it. I've shown many people how to do a ballestra lunge and it doesn't sink in immediately. Generally, it takes practice to learn how to do it.

Also, you'd be amazed at how some oldies can be quite nimble on their feet. When I was a student of Maestro Lajos Csiszar, he was in his 80s and looked like death warmed over. He had a big barrel chest and two tiny legs. But when he wanted one to make a certain action, that person made that action. He had no problems doing a ballestra lunge. He took some gangly kid one summer and by next fall, that kid was kicking butt in practice and competition. I would imagine that that kid was the last Csiszar-made fencer (although I could be wrong).

Lastly, a young 20-something might be able to teach you how to do a specific act, but he won't be able to teach you when to do a specific act. And generally, the when is more important than the how.

Doing a correct action at the wrong time is like trying to fit a perfectly round peg into a square hole.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by edew

Lastly, a young 20-something might be able to teach you how to do a specific act, but he won't be able to teach you when to do a specific act. And generally, the when is more important than the how.

Doing a correct action at the wrong time is like trying to fit a perfectly round peg into a square hole.

You think that a 20 year old Olympic champion doesn't know when to do a move?

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by edew

Lastly, a young 20-something might be able to teach you how to do a specific act, but he won't be able to teach you when to do a specific act. And generally, the when is more important than the how.

Doing a correct action at the wrong time is like trying to fit a perfectly round peg into a square hole.

Most of the coaches who have never held a rating ro ranking are the guys who didn't know when to do the move during their fencing career. edew, for you to be coaching I bet that you are rated.

Come on guys! What I am saying is so obvious. Now would you want to learn Karate from a guy who gets his a$$ kicked at Karate tournaments all the time or from a top Karate champion? What ifthey both charge the same for Karate lessons?

[edew]

Some people, Olympic champions and such, might know when to do a move in an innate sense. They just feel it. But to communicate and explain when and why to someone else is another matter altogether, and that's why some nobodies-as-fencers-but-good-coaches-nonetheless exist and why some good fencers can't ever teach it to others. Tommy Lasorda has been a great baseball manager. Barry Bonds will probably never make it as a baseball manager. Maybe a batting coach, and even that might not be the case.

Explaining how to make a certain action, when to make the action, and other stuff like that are very minor parts of the game of coaching. As someone once mentioned to me, 90% of coaching is behind a desk.

As it pertains to students, I think the biggest part is confidence building and positive reassurance. There are some task-master coaches who might be quite technically proficient. But they lose students like water through a sieve because they have bad personality or they don't relate well to students or can't motivate them properly.

In regards to a successful business plan, I would say being a good motivator and good confidence builder is way more important than a good technical drill master. If the fencer doesn't want to stay with you, who cares if you can teaching a ballestra lunge with a redoublement and a flick to the back.

Learning how to fence, like any other sport, requires doing a lot of repetitive actions, a lot of mundane stuff. Keeping people from being bored, keeping them interested and captivated is the most important part. And for the success of the business, that's really the only part.

[edew]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Most of the coaches who have never held a rating ro ranking are the guys who didn't know when to do the move during their fencing career. edew, for you to be coaching I bet that you are rated.

Come on guys! What I am saying is so obvious. Now would you want to learn Karate from a guy who gets his a$$ kicked at Karate tournaments all the time or from a top Karate champion? What ifthey both charge the same for Karate lessons?

That is the belief and impression that prospective students would take. I mentioned above that if you are a great fencer, by all means advertise that information in all your publicity literature. But the fact is, a great fencer does not a great coach makes. The impression is certainly there and by all means milk that for all its worth when marketing the business.

As a prospective student, I would go for a coach or club who has demonstrated creating top fencers. Unfortunately for new clubs, there are no priors to give such evidence. Some folks just make up names "I coached Joe Schmoe to a national championship...I coached Mary Anne to a blah-blah-blah...I was the former Industistan national Olympic coach..." Could be true, but almost impossible to verify in the 30 seconds or so that one reads the literature.

[DennisCANC]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

What would you know about good coaching. Like there are any in Alaska. LOL

There are several good coaches in Alaska.
Wayne Johnson - Top Epee fencer and coach, and is in his 50's.
John Mathis - Has been coaching for years, and has developed a very nice program, and produced a number of good fencers.
Wes Cannon - Even though he has only been fencing himself for 8 or 9 years, has a fabulous youth program in Homer, Alaska.
Jeff Harman - Came out of fencing retirement to coach a young man that has a lot of potential.
Chris Cushman - Traveling coach that bring a lot of people into the sport, including myself.
And there are several others, with no ranking that are helping out in the coaching and are producing some good fencers.

[lochinvar]

Guys, talking to Reverse Lunge reminds me of an old Russian proverb:

"Never try to teach a pig how to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig."

[ReverseLunge]

Say what you want. I made good points.

[edew]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

Guys, talking to Reverse Lunge reminds me of an old Russian proverb:

"Never try to teach a pig how to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig."

Not Russian. Mark Twain.

[ReverseLunge]

I have no idea why you guys assume that a champion fencer would not have the teaching methodogy to be a coach. I also don't understand why you think a young man cannot know better than an old man. edew, what makes you think that a young champion fencer cannot articulate that innate sense he has for doing the right move at the right time? Obviously there has to be a certain visual stimuli to make him react whatever way he does during a bout.

A few famous coaches in my area are Okawa, Richards, Demirchian and D’Asaro jr. All of these men have been champions. Richards and Okawa were olympians. Demirchian still competes.

Though I would never take lessons from Richards or Okawa because they guys are a bit stuck in the past and don't understand that flicks are valid attacks.

[fence1848]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I have no idea why you guys assume that a champion fencer would not have the teaching methodogy to be a coach.

From experience. I've seen some highly skilled fencers who just cannot communicate to students. So much of fencing is internalized - that is, done without thinking - that the champion fencer may not even realize what needs to be taught because it comes so naturally to them. They also don't necessarily have a good plan for the stages of the students development, so they may try to teach more advanced moves to the student before the student has down the fundamentals needed to perform the action.

I also don't understand why you think a young man cannot know better than an old man.

I'm not sure anyone was saying that. I think the real comparisson was between a skilled fencer who is untested as a coach and an experienced, accomplished coach (not necessarily old) who hasn't competed much.

Though I would never take lessons from Richards or Okawa because they guys are a bit stuck in the past and don't understand that flicks are valid attacks.

Umm, well, they may have been before, but I would suggest you try out the new timing in foil before you rely too heavily on that.

[mlr2fence]

A good athlete does not necessarily make a good coach, and vice versa. Do the names Wilt Chamberlain or George Halas ring a bell? A truly good coach knows how and is able to get the training effort and performance out of an athlete.

[edew]

Let me just reiterate before RL completely threadjacks this thread. A good champion fencer is not necessary to make a successful business. A good champion fencer is certainly worth the marketing angle. That said, a good champion fencer need not be a good coach. There is no correlation. Some good fencers become good coaches. Some don't. Some so-so fencers become good coaches. Some don't. No correlation.

Funny you should list those "champion" fencers from LA. The two most consistent coaches in LA with great coaching results are Itkin and Costin. While they may have been more than decent (as in pretty good) fencers in their time, they're hardly known for their fencing. They are, however, known for their coaching and they do produce good students. Should you go with Jr or Costin? Sorry, Mike, there's no question of who I'll take lessons with.

Okawa and Richards both have had a string (at one time) of good fencers. So they're good fencers who became good coaches. For each one of these, there is a Gary Copeland and a Gene Gettler.

In the international scene, the only top-fencer-turned-top-coach I know of is Alexander Pusch. Who's France's head foil coach? Patrice Manon. Where is he in the list of French Olympians. (He might very well be, but he's certainly more known now for his coaching rather than his fencing.)

So in a nutshell, and once again for RL:

If you're starting a fencing club business, use the fact that you're a great fencer -- if you are -- by all means, to market the business. If you weren't a great fencer, you have just a little less ammo to work with.

If you're a potential student looking at various fencing clubs, don't take one just because the coach was a famous fencer. Look at the coach's track record. If the business is new, there's no track record and that is definitely a negative for the club. But that's the case for all businesses, right?

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

A good athlete does not necessarily make a good coach, and vice versa. Do the names Wilt Chamberlain or George Halas ring a bell? A truly good coach knows how and is able to get the training effort and performance out of an athlete.

I heard Wilt Chamberlain is too "busy" to coach or do anything else.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by edew

In the international scene, the only top-fencer-turned-top-coach I know of is Alexander Pusch. Who's France's head foil coach? Patrice Manon. Where is he in the list of French Olympians. (He might very well be, but he's certainly more known now for his coaching rather than his fencing.)

France's men's epee national coach would probably be a better example for you. He never fenced, until he joined the army. He was a sports teacher and got taught in the French military program how to teach fencing, and became a fencing master this way. I don't think he ever entered a fencing competition as a fencer.

With that being said, I think France is quite different. There is a very long tradition of teaching fencing coaches how to coach in specialized classes and courses. There are recognized diplomas (you cannot open or even teach in a fencing club without one). I don't think that the US has that. You can just decide you are a fencing coach and open a club. I guess that the credential that replaces the master's diploma in the US is successful competitive career.

I also think that the coaching "business" is very largely composed of former coaches and fencers from the old eastern block. These coaches have a curriculum (or sometimes they create themselves one) and they use this competitive curriculum to make themselves look like better coaches than the other guy next door. Sometimes this is justified (they really are better coaches) and sometimes it isn't.

I guess in the US, the only way to know how good a coach is is to look at his student's results, and how well the person is doing with young fencers that they start from scratch.

It might take a little more time when you're choosing your coach, but it's worth the effort.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I have no idea why you guys assume that a champion fencer would not have the teaching methodogy to be a coach. I also don't understand why you think a young man cannot know better than an old man. edew, what makes you think that a young champion fencer cannot articulate that innate sense he has for doing the right move at the right time? Obviously there has to be a certain visual stimuli to make him react whatever way he does during a bout.

A few famous coaches in my area are Okawa, Richards, Demirchian and D’Asaro jr. All of these men have been champions. Richards and Okawa were olympians. Demirchian still competes.

Though I would never take lessons from Richards or Okawa because they guys are a bit stuck in the past and don't understand that flicks are valid attacks.

You make some good points. Peter Westbrook comes to mind as a champion turned coach in the US, so I don't think anyone is saying that champions can not be good coaches. I think the comment is that good coaches do not *have* to be good competitors. That's all.

As a coach myself I find that I get some of the best insights I get are from Olympians and Olympians turned coaches. There are two great coaches in my area: Leslie Palmai and Jujie Luan. Jujie is a past Olympic Gold Medalist, Leslie I've never seen or heard compete. When I have a question about teaching a beginner a technique or dealing with a piste situation that a student just doesn't seem to *get*, I go talk to Leslie. The champion coach seems to have a better feel for the intricacies of communication and preparation that are needed to grow a fencer from scratch. When I have a question about tactics and timing, I go to Jujie. The champion turned coach seems to have a better feel for the technical aspects of the various fencing manouvres that are needed when a student of mine encounters a situation that I, as a coach, am at a loss for how to cope with.

A champion does not, in my experience, a coach of champions make. A coach of champions does not, in my experience, a champion make. The skills required for each are totally different. As a champion coach, you need to be able to present realistic opportunities consistently and correctly for your student to train against. You need to be able to mimic particularly thorny tactical problems and come up with winning tactics and strategic information on thorny competitors. You need to be able to grow a fencing mind from a fencing body. As a champion coach, you are essentially training yourself to lose and are, at higher levels, not much more then a highly skilled fencing dummy.

As a competitor, you need the ability to absorb information and the persistence to follow through with your training. A competitor should not be scouting out the competition or devising innovative tactics. A competitor should be honing their skills and preparing for the next bout.

When a champion becomes a coach generally they enter into competition with their students and/or fail to motivate them. Fencers that come out of fencing programs run by champions tend (and this is a bit of an oversimplification) to do well without external motivation. Those that need a kick in the arse, don't generally suceed in a champion's fencing program.

And, by the way, you are absolutely totally on the ball about being able to perform the techniques you are trying to teach. You don't need to be able to perform them well, or on time, but you do most certainly need to be able to demonstrate them. A coach needs the basic technical skills to teach. No argument here. Ideally, their technique should be a little slower then competitive and very clean. If your coach can not perform a ballestra lunge themselves then, you are absolutely correct, they are not a very good coach. But they don't need to be able to keep perfect distance using proper footwork through a series of ballestra lunges with double retreat, half step, step lunge, recover forward. In fact, any coach that tries is an amateur at best.

In my experience though, the 20 year old olympian has no idea how to teach a beginner to do a simple step. Has no idea how to correct them when they inevitably bone it up, or how to structure the lesson so that the student picks up the skill correctly and quickly. I've seen this devolve into inarticulate screaming at the stupidity of the student.

Hope this helps.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by jBirch

And, by the way, you are absolutely totally on the ball about being able to perform the techniques you are trying to teach. You don't need to be able to perform them well, or on time, but you do most certainly need to be able to demonstrate them. A coach needs the basic technical skills to teach. No argument here.

Thanks. I thought this would be obvious. Its just like dancing.

[fluidfencer]

The point about fencing degrees was an interesting one.

Lahouari Benslaimane teaches in South Carolina (at Furman I believe), but I don't think he is a full-time coach. I am fairly sure that he and his wife (I am more sure about his wife having a degree) have degrees in fencing. I believe they are originally from Armenia. I hope my facts are fairly accurate.

Both of our coaches have degrees in fencing from China. Coach Wang even won their national thesis competition in the sports catagory.

It seems that a school like Stanford or Penn State or Rochester should be able to put together a degree program. That would certainly be an asset to the fencing community. It would also provide an objective measure of coaching ability.

I guess that relates back to the Business Plan thread to some degree :-)