The range of positive reinforcement in coaching

[Victor]

To what degree do you expect a coach to motivate a fencer to train and compete? Given the following extreme examples as a range guideline, where would you rank yourself or your coach?

* A coach should always reach out to any of his fencers and offer helpful suggestions and positive reinforcement even though the fencer has never approached him for assistance. After all, they'll never get into the flow if you don't push them a little.

* A coach should wait for a fencer to establish his competitive intent by seeking out lessons and feedback from the coach. If the fencer doesn't have the guts to come forward on his own, then he obviously doesn't have what it takes to be a winning athlete.

[lochinvar]

I would consider myself in the first group, although all of my coaching has been informal fencer-to-fencer type.

However, my focus is on growing the sport by including as many people as possible; my focus is not on producing champions.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I concentrate my energy toward the fencers I think shows dedication, talent, and the will to learn, regardless of whether or not they request it. If he/she doesnt have the drive, then they will never go anywhere even with coaching.
I'm not going to go waste my time on people who wont take me seriously, I choose my own students, and I give them 100% of my energy.

[SwordSoul]

In what way do you want to help your fencers? There's no reason you can't offer yourself to all your fencers and help them to succeed. It's been my experience as a coach that if you give your all to everyone, the ones who want it the most show it by bringing up everyone else too. It's hard to define "success." I define it as instilling a sense of pride and confidence in the individual, helping them realize their potential and helping them drive towards it. I've got one fencer who is striving to do well at NACs and another who finally after weeks and weeks and weeks scored a perfect simple parry riposte finally finally finally. and truth be told it felt like winning the superbowl. Of course, I give as much to the nationals-bound guy as the other student. One wants to prove themselves on the path, the other needs shown that regardless of their current state, they can learn and do anything they put their mind to. It's interesting--how many people have you asked if they want to learn to fence and they think "oh no, i could never..." but once they mask, and work and work and work and then suddenly "ping!" that lightbulb goes off and they get this concept or that concept, and you realize why you're in this coaching biz over and over again.

"No one can give you an education, you have to get one."
"Sport doesn't build character, it reveals it."
I really don't think a coach really seeks out a nationals-calibur fencers. I think the drive comes from the individuals themselves. If you have it to offer, the ones who want it will come and get it.

Of course, this can be done by seeking out those who give 100% only. Which is totally fine. Just keep in mind that sometimes 100% is a gold medal and some times 100% is the first touch scored at a novice tournament.

peace
matt

[Purple Fencer]

I just prfefer to pass on as much as I can, even if I've just discovered something the day before the lesson. I don't push my student to compete...I try to train her as if she WAS going to compete, however (that way she's not caught unprepared for when she does go)

[RebelFencer]

Well, I just became a coach this year (scary thought huh?). I have 3 consistant students under me who I think have potential. What I did was I offered that I will give foil lessons free of charge to anyone who requests it, I feel that the rest should be up to the individual.

[Victor]

I am intrigued by the variety of coaching behaviors I see at clubs and competitions. Sometimes it seems as though a coach's enthusiastic support is actually making a fencer more tense and less effective (which prompts the coach to crank it up another notch and make matters worse). Equally interesting are the coaches I hinted at in my initial post, those who give excellent lessons and advice ... but only if the student is internally motivated to seek out such training, which means they're allowing a lot of other potential athletes to remain ineffective fencers as well.

I s'pose, in some ways, there are parallels here to certain religious groups -- those who feel it's important to proselytize, reaching out and proactively offering a helping hand to the unenlightened; and those who are content to let each person find his own path to God and truth. Same thing with counseling, politics, mentoring, philosophy ... anything where one person has the opportunity to help another person be "better" in some way.

(shrug) One poor man's opinion.

Still, interesting to see that diversity at work.

I think I fall somewhere in the middle. Smack-dab in the middle.

[Gav]

I don't coach but I can say what I respond to.

I can't operate in a vacuum. I like to get some feedback and hear the odd word of encouragement. I'd like to think that I prefer a balance between the two extremes. Also, I expect things to be clearly explained, if I don't understand I always ask for clarification. If coach is watching it's nice if they shout the odd word of encouragement however I am only really able to assimilate complex advice until the break. If coach wants to bring something to my attention that is fine.

Although I don't coach some fencers like to have me around as "I have a good eye for the fencer and his opponent". That's what they say. On the break I try to avoid telling them that they are doing something 'wrong'. Instead I try to give them something positive to think about. For example: Rather thay say, "You are not scoring with direct lunges" I might say "Try 1-2's". I feel that by underlining something negative (during the break) only reinforces it. Similarly when obeserving their opponents I try not to be disparaging about them. I might say "he has a poor attack, keeps his arm low and panic parries in quarte, I don't to say "this guy is an idiot, look at him ha ha ha ha, you'll wipe the floor with him."

[SwordSoul]

[quote=Victor]
I s'pose, in some ways, there are parallels here to certain religious groups -- those who feel it's important to proselytize, reaching out and proactively offering a helping hand to the unenlightened; and those who are content to let each person find his own path to God and truth. Same thing with counseling, politics, mentoring, philosophy ... anything where one person has the opportunity to help another person be "better" in some way.

(QUOTE]


ah fencing, truly one of the great metaphors for life

[D'Artag-NOT]

Originally Posted by Victor

To what degree do you expect a coach to motivate a fencer to train and compete? Given the following extreme examples as a range guideline, where would you rank yourself or your coach?

* A coach should always reach out to any of his fencers and offer helpful suggestions and positive reinforcement even though the fencer has never approached him for assistance. After all, they'll never get into the flow if you don't push them a little.

* A coach should wait for a fencer to establish his competitive intent by seeking out lessons and feedback from the coach. If the fencer doesn't have the guts to come forward on his own, then he obviously doesn't have what it takes to be a winning athlete.

I'll go with your former example. If they're "his" fencers, then as the coach he has a responsibility to help them. There may be those who need that kind of encouragement initially to gain the confidence to come forward and seek out lessons, feedback, etc. Seems to me that just taking up the sport establishes a certain amount of "competitive intent".

I'm assuming here, of course, that the coach's goal is to teach and encourage fencers rather than simply to produce champions, like a racehorse breeder.

Edited to satisfy my urge for perfect punctuation.

[duel mom]

My son, aged 14 does not initiate advice from his coach. He has lessons once per week. I often wish that the coach would initiate conversation such as "how was last weekend's competition?" (the coach did not attend), or "what do you think you could have done differently?". This could be done instead of the 'physical' lesson. Rapport is just as important as learning skills and shows that the coach cares, is approachable and it would give my son the confidence to approach him in the future. I wish the coach would require his fencers to keep a notebook of tournaments with just such reflections as above, what worked against whom, for future reference.

[RebelFencer]

You could have your son keep his own notebook. I'm sure this would be a good benefit, I've never really thought of this before. I personally respond better to video tape because I can look and say, "Wow, my form isn't that bad with the such and such attack (or what have you)." Or I can say, "Geez! It looks like I'm fencing while having a seizure." I would suggest that your son should start initiating the coach with conversation on tournaments, etc. After the coach realizes that your son really is into it I think he will become more vocal.

[Victor]

Thanks, D.Mom. Yours is a good example of the conflict prompting this message thread.

Some coaches are more proactive about building students' confidence; others allow the student to find his own strength in his own time.

I wish there was some easy way to determine which path is more worthy.

[scarlet_woman156k]

Originally Posted by duel mom

My son, aged 14 does not initiate advice from his coach. He has lessons once per week. I often wish that the coach would initiate conversation such as "how was last weekend's competition?" (the coach did not attend), or "what do you think you could have done differently?". This could be done instead of the 'physical' lesson. Rapport is just as important as learning skills and shows that the coach cares, is approachable and it would give my son the confidence to approach him in the future. I wish the coach would require his fencers to keep a notebook of tournaments with just such reflections as above, what worked against whom, for future reference.

EXACTLY...I think an involved coach makes for much better fencers. My coach is so supportive, it totally rocks. But it's also a partnership...we are a team, it is so cool. When I win...we BOTH win. We put so much time in together, it's definitely a team effort. What's cool too is we learn from each other, since we are so open with one another and I think it definitely helps how to better communicate things together and probably helps her understand what she needs to do as a coach specifically to assist my development. As the seasons come and go what worked for me one season may not work for me now, and she realizes that, so the regular communication (reevaluation) is essential. I think if we didn't do it, both she and I would become stagnant both as a coach and as a fencer. It's awesome...her hard work towards me has made me thrive immeasureably and I'm grateful to her for that.

I think background is important...she has the education to back up her skills as a coach. I've watched how she works with me and other students and it's amazing, and she's constantly trying to improve her skills to be more effective with us. She's very knowledgable not only about fencing, but how to implement strategies to grow the ATHLETE...no matter what the sport.

Why don't you talk to your son's coach about it? Maybe his coach never even thought to do so?

[swordsen]

I spent years pushing students about lessons, drills, tournaments, etc. Tis year I finally got tired of it. If they aren't willing to come to me to ask for lessons I am not going to hassle them about it any more. those who take lesson still get the full meal deal though. Those who don't. well, if they aren't interested enough to ask for help I just have more time to fence myself.

[prototoast]

I think it all depends on the particular student, especially with younger ones. Some kids might be too shy to openly engage the coach initially, and the coach, as part of the coaching, should engage the student in dialogue to help move him along. Others may never become self-motivated if they are always being pushed along. Ultimately, I think the student has to have the desire in order for a coach to put in the extra work, but not all students will show it in the same way, and good coach will recognize the individual's needs and act accordingly.

[Victor]

Might it be a sliding scale for the coach as a student progresses? Consider the general levels of the USFCA certification practical exams -- a coach-led lesson at moniteur level; about half student-directed and half coach-led lesson at prevot level; and very much fencer-directed lesson at the maestro level.

The coach should actively seek to engage his young/newer students, but then step back as they gain experience and see who comes forward for focused instruction.

[Taomagicdragon]

Originally Posted by Victor

Thanks, D.Mom. Yours is a good example of the conflict prompting this message thread.

Some coaches are more proactive about building students' confidence; others allow the student to find his own strength in his own time.

I wish there was some easy way to determine which path is more worthy.

In my opinion, a coach should reach out and help the fencer, but will give the fencer leeway so that they may have time to collect themselves or be able to work on their strengths to hone them, or spend more time on their weaknesses to improve upon it. I think both the fencer and the coach should work together to make up the best training lessons.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by scarlet_woman156k

EXACTLY...I think an involved coach makes for much better fencers. My coach is so supportive, it totally rocks. But it's also a partnership...we are a team, it is so cool. When I win...we BOTH win. We put so much time in together, it's definitely a team effort.

As other said, it's not necessarily what everyone needs, or wants. I know that I wouldn't want to have a coach that is always behind my back and always asking me "How did it go, what did you do" or telling me "You should do this, you shouldn't do that".

I don't know if I am expressing this well enough, but to sort of make it more clear I'd say that I have enough of myself to mess with my own head. I don't want to have to worry about having to deal with the coach's advice all the time.

I think it is really up to the student and how they respond to those different kind of stimuli. Some students will need constant supervision, and others will need less. Personally, what I am looking in a coach is someone who can give me ideas of things I can work on, and ways I can do it. I like to do the work myself.

Others might need more handholding. Beginning students are an example. Younger students another. Perhaps the best thing for a coach is to wait for a sign that his method isn't working with a particular student, and then he will have to be able to adapt.

What's cool too is we learn from each other

I'd be feeling uneasy and kind of robbed if my coach was learning things from me instead of the opposite.

Why don't you talk to your son's coach about it? Maybe his coach never even thought to do so?

I think that would probably be the best thing to do. If your son thinks that he needs more moral support, then asking the coach to give more would probably be best.

[wflaschka]

so far we have...
Coaches reaching out to students
Coaches learning from students
Coaches produce fencers, not champions

There are situations where a coach must look after the interests of several dozen fencers. And there are situations where the coach is working with a fencer, and the coach's experience and knowledge is galactically beyond the fencer's. It's not fair or realistic to ask coaches to open their hearts to every single person, especially when hundreds may stand in front of them each year. Remember, students are also those guys who:

- talk big, and then never show up
- beg to schedule special lessons, and then disappear for months
- don't drill, don't do footwork, and show up for lessons cold
- don't target practice at home
- don't read the rulebook, and incessantly argue about rules
- carelessly throw away their talent or take it for granted
- prioritize everything higher than fencing

...and the coaches are (hopefully) the ones who do the opposite.

For every worthwhile fencer, there are many (even dozens) who suck up your time and return very little. If the coach is valuable, he/she is not in the coaching game to hold hands or socialize introverts. Presumably the coach is trying to make good fencing, and the good coaches have a very concrete ideas and a vision for each fencer that they are trying to realize. Once you see your 10th broken wrist position for the day, you understand how little you have to learn about fencing from most students. (However, every student is exciting, for their potential and their natural strengths that promise great things. Every student has them.)

In the end, it's up to the fencer to demonstrate an investment in the process. The lists of what make a good coach / analyst / friend are well and good, but if you want coaching, it comes down to the coach's desires and motivations. If the fencer is driven, hardworking, self-training, listenable, and uses what they learn -- there is not a coach in the world who wouldn't love them. The coach would skip their own funeral to schedule a lesson with that fencer. And merely paying money is not an investment, though it's nice; money is easy. Living, breathing, working, thinking fencing is the hard part.

About producing champions -- I think most coaches view coaching as a result-driven exercise. When the students don't improve, there is a problem, because "good fencing" isn't happening. Coaches don't view Fencing, capital F, as two choads killing themselves to hit an open target on strip; Fencing happens at the upper levels, the beautiful touches expressing excellence, the realization of hard work and diligence. I'm betting most coaches only get a few great fencers per lifetime, and they work with hundreds of fencers to find each gem. So fencing overall is improved by the search for champions.