Equipment Control

[Lone Wolf]

For what it's worth, I ran into an unexpected equipment failure at a recent world championship event. The weapons control returned one of my epees with a failure note. The failure was that the blade was too stiff! I was familiar with the bend-test checking for too much bend (whippy blade). But this one was new to me. A couple of other competitors also had the same problem. I wound up having to buy a new blade on the spot.

When I asked the official armorer, I was told the rule for too stiff a blade was on the books for about 4 years, but that it was enforced seldom, if ever. They decided to enforce the rule at this tournament.

[suregrip]

That's awful! I like a stiff blade because I don't flick. I'm not anti-flick or anything like that, I just choose not to. More than likely, all of my blades would fail that test then.

[neevel]

Check the rules- there's is both a minimum and maximum on the flex test for all three weapons, and it's been there for a lot longer than 4 years. I've seen plenty of epee blades that are too stiff. Because there are many epee fencers who like very stiff blades, manufacturers make some blades that are right at the limit-- so close that some examples of a run will be too stiff. The assumption is that those fencers who are going to a world championships will have their weapons tested for flex before submitting to control. For the >99.9% of blades that will never be used at a World Championships or Olympic Games, it really won't matter that some a a bit over the limit.

-Dave

[DHCJr]

When I asked the official armorer, I was told the rule for too stiff a blade was on the books for about 4 years, but that it was enforced seldom, if ever. They decided to enforce the rule at this tournament.

I hope that is a typo or the armorer doesn't know what they are talking about. If they had said 40 years, they would have been closer. I have a rule book from the AFLA that shows the flexibility rule.

By the way the AFLA, became the USFA. I don't have a rule book before the 60's, but it was there. I can tell you that in every World's I have been involved with, there have been a number of blades that were failed for being too stiff, many from the French Epee team.

[veeco]

there have been a number of blades that were failed for being too stiff, many from the French Epee team.

We do love our blades stiff... I can attest to that. One of my current blades is a real broomstick!

[DHCJr]

I remember the World University Games in Buffalo. Trying to find ANY of the French Epee that were flexible enough. In fact there was one blade, we put 2 flexibility weights on that we could not tell it flexed at all.

I would not like to be on the receiving end of that blade. I think a broom handle would be more flexible.

[sreckiki]

We do love our blades stiff... I can attest to that. One of my current blades is a real broomstick!

I can attest that too... I bought an Allstar blade, 6 months ago and it's still really stiff. And it's perfect for me because I use a French Handle!

But anyway, how is it possible to buy a blade too stiff?

I thought (but maybe I'm too naive...) that if I buy a blade from Allstar or any other company for something like $120, I can expect that, at least, this blade will pass the equipment control concerning its stiffness!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody tests those blades before selling them to some poor fencers?... who maybe one day, will fence in a World Championships! Hahaha....

I just find that a bit weird.

[sreckiki]

I remember the World University Games in Buffalo. Trying to find ANY of the French Epee that were flexible enough. In fact there was one blade, we put 2 flexibility weights on that we could not tell it flexed at all.

I would not like to be on the receiving end of that blade. I think a broom handle would be more flexible.

Could you tell me what's the weight I have to put at the end of my blade to estimate if it can pass the control?


Another thought. I use to fence with a very stiff blade but I think, I am really less painful for my opponents than most of the other fencers who use (not gently...) an orthopedic handle and a less stiff blade.

[oiuyt]

Testing procedures are in the rulebook. It's a 200g weight. I know the blade must be fixed 70cm from the tip, I don't recall off-hand how far onto the blade the wieght is attached and don't feel like pulling up a rulebook to check it right now. You measure the amount (distance) of deflection caused by the addition of the weight and it must be within a range specified in the rules.

-B :)

[DHCJr]

For Foil and Epee it is 3 cm (M.8 & M.16) for Sabre 1 cm (M.23) and as Oiuyt pointed out a 200 g weight.

The minimum and maximum deflections.
Foil - 5.5 - 9.5
Epee - 4.5 - 7.0
Sabre - 4.0 - 7

It is interesting that a blade a little too stiff for Sabre would barely pass for Epee.

[fencinman89]

I or I should say my team owns two of the Fake FIE baldes that were made by France Lame. And they are extremly flicky i think i should test one of these for the weight test because it is more flexible than my soft foil blades.
-Tre'

[misha]

For Foil and Epee it is 3 cm (M.8 & M.16) for Sabre 1 cm (M.23) and as Oiuyt pointed out a 200 g weight.

The minimum and maximum deflections.
Foil - 5.5 - 9.5
Epee - 4.5 - 7.0
Sabre - 4.0 - 7

It is interesting that a blade a little too stiff for Sabre would barely pass for Epee.

Do you have a special stand/device to hold a blade for this test?

I think it would be very benefitial to have such kind of testing
just for educational purposes...

I am thinking Long Beach Invitational


You do not have to test all blades - just test it for people who want to know


.

[DHCJr]

Let me think about bringing out a Gabarit. One problem especially at Long Beach is space. The Gabarit is the size of a small table and we will be having 5 full-time Armorers and their tools and coolers to hold the Armorer's medicine as well as a number of volunteers. I will need to see, if I can get another room to hold something like that.

We are crowded into a corner of one of the Gyms.

I forgot to say, it USED to be a Sabre blade that was slightly too stiff was barely stiff enough to pass Epee and now Sabre is the stiffest.

[misha]

Let me think about bringing out a Gabarit. One problem especially at Long Beach is space. The Gabarit is the size of a small table and we will be having 5 full-time Armorers and their tools and coolers to hold the Armorer's medicine as well as a number of volunteers. I will need to see, if I can get another room to hold something like that.

We are crowded into a corner of one of the Gyms.

Do not worry then - you will have enough trouble without
giving blade flexibility classes


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[DHCJr]

Giving the classes will be no problem and I would suggest that anyone who wants to learn about any aspect of Armoring, this will probably be the best place to go. Think about it most NAC's have 3 Armorers and do they have a tenth the experience of the staff I will have there. That is why we will be having volunteers. I have so good of a staff, you can help learning.

The staff is not a problem, I am going to have to work on space. You gave me an idea to have a place to see what an International Control looks like.

Sam, why don't you make a comment. Do you think the staff I have could possibly be able to teach a little about Armoring or to have enough tools to be able to work a tournament AND set up an demonstration of an International control.

[misha]

Giving the classes will be no problem and I would suggest that anyone who wants to learn about any aspect of Armoring, this will probably be the best place to go. Think about it most NAC's have 3 Armorers and do they have a tenth the experience of the staff I will have there. That is why we will be having volunteers. I have so good of a staff, you can help learning.

The staff is not a problem, I am going to have to work on space. You gave me an idea to have a place to see what an International Control looks like.

Sam, why don't you make a comment. Do you think the staff I have could possibly be able to teach a little about Armoring or to have enough tools to be able to work a tournament AND set up an demonstration of an International control.

I did not mean to question your ability to perform all this tasks. I am absolutely sure that you and your staff can do it.

International control demonstration may be a "nice to have" feature
of the LBI, but not the "must have" one

However, I suspect it may attract some people from other parts of the country.... Army Fencer?


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[sreckiki]

I thought (but maybe I'm too naive...) that if I buy a blade from Allstar or from any other company for something like $120, I can expect that, at least, this blade will pass the equipment control concerning its stiffness!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody tests those blades before selling them to some poor fencers?

Nobody can comment that?

I think if my weapons don't pass the equipment control at the next NAC (if there is one because I never fence in this kind of event), I will be really upset against ... the guy who sold these blade to me!

[DHCJr]

I did not mean to question your ability to perform all this tasks. I am absolutely sure that you and your staff can do it.

International control demonstration may be a "nice to have" feature
of the LBI, but not the "must have" one

However, I suspect it may attract some people from other parts of the country.... Army Fencer?


.

Sorry, I came across wrong. I didn't think you were doing that. I just wanted to make sure it was understood it was a space issue, but I do like the idea and I am going to push to have that. Part of that was a dig at Sam, such as the Armorer's medicine and Sam is turning into a very good Armorer. His only problem and it is the same as mine is location. In many areas, as good as he is, he would be considered as a master. Armorers, who are in Southern California or New Jersey and are not named Dan, Joe, Carl or Ted will have a hard time making a name for themselves, because they will be compared with those 4.

Army Fencer is like Mohamad and the Mountain. He got the mountain or should I say mole hill to come to him.

I want to thank you for your idea. It would be something good to have there and as I said, I will try and make it happen.

[misha]

It would be something good to have there and as I said, I will try and make it happen.

Thanks.

I will be there - I already have confirmed registration



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