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Senior Member
Array 
New timing upgrade - where and which one to get I recently ordered a chip upgrade for my Favero-01 scoring machine. This thread is to report where to get the upgrades for the different scoring machines and which one to get.
As it pertains to the Favero machines, as of three days ago, they are offering two types of upgrading chips:
- a cheaper 2-Programs version chip. Once installed, it allows you to select whether you want the FIE2003 vs the T2005 timings. The advantage is lesser price and ability to revert back if the timings are rolled back for specific competitions. (see for example the thread on the upcoming tournaments in the East coast). The disadvantage would be that the setup for competition might be erroneous, meaning that fencers will need to verify that the machine displays the correct light.
To change the program version from FIE-2003 to JUNIOR-2004 and vice versa, the 2nd VERS.PROG keymust keep pressed for 4 seconds.
The flashing or always on status, of the red led showing the selected weapon, announces which program is active. More clearly: The FIE-2003 program is active if the red led showing the selected weapon is always on (not flashing).
The JUNIOR-2004 program is active if the red led showing the selected weapon is flashing. - a more expensive T2005 version chip that is the only legal FIE approved solution for the 2004-2005 FIE season. The advantage is FIE legal with its red T2005 sticker. The disadvantage is that if you are running a USFA competition before the X date for USFA approval, or if we hear in let's say January '05 that the timings won't be extended for the following season, people will need to scramble repairing machines as most people will like to train with old timings.
The T2005-FA1 integrated circuit (from now called “chip”), to be inserted in the apposite socket, as below specified.
1. A red sticker with the T2005 writing, which must be attached on a visible place of the apparatus. 2. The sticker can be attached only once: if you try to remove it, it breaks
itself.
3. The Technical Information, which describes the security system used to ensure that the operation can not be modified. That technical information must always follows the apparatus, for the FIE verification.
As most of us do not run FIE competitions, and our machines are primarily for training or local competitions, I see very little incentive to be placing FIE stickers or using T2005 chips.
Now describe other fixes for other brands of scoring machines, how to get them, where you got them, at what price, and any problems placing the fix.
P.S. I ordered 2 additional 2-program chips for the FA-01 at $38.00 (US) plus priority mail with receipt (4.30) within USA. I should receive them by 9/28.
FAVERO Scoring Machines:
http://www.favero.com/proupdat.htm
Suggest: 2-program chip for FA-01, 03, or 05.
Last edited by JEC; 09-17-2004 at 12:38 AM.
Epee is the Sword.
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Senior Member
Array 
Thanks, very informative and a relief that our club will not have to spend $100's to upgrade the Favero. Now what about the SG's and the TCA's?
-r
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Senior Member
Array
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Senior Member
Array
JEC - Now that you got me thinking about this, I had to take some action. Our club has a mix of scoring machines, Favero, TCA & SG. Since you got the info on the Favero, I looked into SG & TCA.
I first checked out information about the SG, but I couldn't find anything on the web. I might be at Blue Gauntlet this weekend and if so I will ask Mr. Chen.
On the TCA, the club has the TCA machine that lives in the little metal briefcase. Its listed in the catalogue as model SE-33-99. I emailed Triplette and Walter Triplette wrote back, "There is no charge for updates to a TCA scoring machine. We have had the new program ready since January. You may return your machine whenever it suits you."
So far so good. What I thought was going to cost $100's per machine is now around $40 for the Favero and shipping fees for the TCA.
-r
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Senior Member
Array
I just talked to a coach who just ordered a new machine from Amanda. It appears that the entire first batch of the chips for the SG machines will be going to USFA, as they rent them to USFA for NACs. She appears to have "new" machine with the new timing, but if you need to retrofit your older machine, you will need to wait.
The Favero chip that I have for sale is 38.00 (+shipping) with the 2-program chip. If you want one of them, send me an email to: texasepilepsy@earthlink.net
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Given to the outstanding response (read savings as compared the only US vendor advertising), I am putting a second order tonight. If you are interested, please email me at: texasepilepsy@earthlink.net . Please include your name, address, model number of your scoring machine, and which chip you want.
If you have a question on which chip you need, read the thread above
The first group of 2-program chips for the FA-01 scoring machine has arrived to the States earlier than expected, so I might be able to send them via Priority Mail as early as Friday. I need a check for each chip for $42.30 (38.00 + priority mail shipping; or $80.30 if you ordered two chips ) and your address.
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 Originally Posted by JEC I just talked to a coach who just ordered a new machine from Amanda. It appears that the entire first batch of the chips for the SG machines will be going to USFA, as they rent them to USFA for NACs. She appears to have "new" machine with the new timing, but if you need to retrofit your older machine, you will need to wait.
The Favero chip that I have for sale is 38.00 (+shipping) with the 2-program chip. If you want one of them, send me an email to: texasepilepsy@earthlink.net I talked with Ron Herman yesterday, and he confirmed that the new lease SG scoring machines going to the USFA will have the new timings, and that upgrade FW for existing SG machines will not be available from Blue Gauntlet until the October/November timeframe. This, BTW, gives a definite answer to the matter of application of the new timings in NACs: the new timings will be in effect for the first NAC of the season (the BoD will make a post-facto ratification of this, apparently).
-Dave "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by."
-Douglas Adams
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I installed my chip upgrade for the FA-01 yesterday, it was a piece of cake.
The directions are available online PDF instructions for FA-01.
Essentially, you remove the 7 screws of the back. They recommend to use a flat screwdriver to pull the chip. I found that a little sharp knife works better. You pull alternating each end of the chip to get it out. The new chip has its name written on top. It must be placed in the orientation that is in the drawing. You put the machine together, turn power on, and the you need to press the 2nd Ver button for 4 seconds to alternate between timing programs. The new timings blink, whereas the LED is constantly on for the old timings.
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Originally Posted by JEC BY SCORING MACHINES
Saint George - no info
Great and we have 6 of the SG12s and a SG 21.
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Senior Member
Array 
I have heard reports form fencers at recent UK competitions that suggest you should wait a while before upgrading. Apparently "new boxes" have been registering hits incorrectly, or not registering them when they should have.
It has been suggested to me that some of these reports may be down to fencers not understanding the implications of the new timings. Fair point. But at least one of the fencers who spoke to me about this is experienced enough for me to have some faith in some of their comments.
If you're just using the boxes for club fencing (not competitions) and unless you NEED to upgrade now, or you know that the upgrades are absolutely perfect, I would say wait till any potential bugs are sorted. (Just my opinion.)
This post has been edited to avoid slander (or liable - I can't remember which is which). I do not wish to imply there is a specific fault with any particular design of boxes and, as I did not attend the competitions in question, I am merely reporting what I have been told by people who were there.
Last edited by TheArmourer; 09-24-2004 at 12:50 PM.
How does it work? Why doesn't it? How to fix it? How to choose equipment? Look for the answers at www.thearmourer.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk When you know everything you, should stop offering advice.
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hi Armourer,
Most of these rumours are down to people not looking after their kit. This applies to both the LP and Allstar boxes. There are some issues. Whether these are actually issues {or not] depends on whether you accept that a box working to FIE spec's, that has issues, is faulty or not. Makes me wonder if the older box designs were over engineered.
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The upgrade for the Eclipse machines is a software patch. The upgrade for the Favero consists of replacing a single chip. The instructions in these two are pretty simple. I do not see how it would be "difficult".
I do not know how technically difficult has been to upgrade the Prieur, LPs, Allstar, Uhlmann, or SG machines. Perhaps, this must become an issue when people are buying their new machines for their clubs. Clearly, the top two brands would have an edge.
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Upgrade of Leon Paul Machines All F.I.E. C90FES the metal wedge shaped machines can be re-chipped. Just let us know the serial number on the back of the box. Cost £39.90 plus shipping. $70 Plus Shipping.
All new club microprocessor apparatuses first sold nine months ago (they have yellow light LED and LED to show the weapon selection ) can be re-chipped at a cost of £24.90 plus shipping $45. All old club apparatus can be changed by hard wiring in new components. Probably not worth returning to the U.K. but if there is enough demand will look to have it done in U.S. cost in U.K. £34.90.
In Bristol last week end we ran a competition with 40 new Leon Paul Club battery apparatuses set to the new timming and 10 or so C90 FES. There were reports that hits were not registering, but what was actually happening was the fencers not being able to cope with the new foil timing. See my posting on amourer section of the net. With the new foil timing will fundamentally alter foil Fencing.
As for the competition run in essex a brand new make of Allstar machine was being used and even under the old timing faults were occuring including radom coloured green lights. Barry Paul.
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Senior Member
Array
Can someone remind me (or point me in the direction) of the change in timings specification (including before and after).
Reprogaming eproms is a bit beyond most people and I wouldn't expect eveyone to have the kit to do it, but I reckon that with the boxes that just use non-programable logic chips it shouldn't be more than changing a couple of capacitors. And pretty much any armourer with a soldering iron should be able to do that, if only someone can work out which to change. (Now where did I leave my old uni electronics notes ...)
Last edited by TheArmourer; 09-24-2004 at 12:52 PM.
How does it work? Why doesn't it? How to fix it? How to choose equipment? Look for the answers at www.thearmourer.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk When you know everything you, should stop offering advice.
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Originally Posted by JEC The upgrade for the Eclipse machines is a software patch. The upgrade for the Favero consists of replacing a single chip. The instructions in these two are pretty simple. I do not see how it would be "difficult".
I do not know how technically difficult has been to upgrade the Prieur, LPs, Allstar, Uhlmann, or SG machines. Perhaps, this must become an issue when people are buying their new machines for their clubs. Clearly, the top two brands would have an edge. The Eigertek upgrade, like the Favero upgrade, is a replacement for the socketed firmware chip. The same will be true for the other microprocessor boxes-- you'll get a replacement firmware chip. The exception I know of in that category would be the Russian Amico boxes. If you can find out who to get a F/W update from (probably a bit of a challenge in itself), you'll need to break out your rework station, because the firmware is soldered to the board instead of socketed.
BTW, some of the Eigertek F/W chips were shipped out without instructions. To get the new timings, after you've put the chip in you need to turn the R10 trim pot clockwise to it's vertical position. Returning it to the horizontal position will give you the current timings.
-Dave
Last edited by neevel; 09-24-2004 at 02:13 PM.
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by."
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Senior Member
Array 
I figure I should drop this into the discussion:
I fence for one of the clubs in the midwest conference, and there has been an ongoing debate about boxes and timing. An e-mail that came in today (discussion between coaches and club presidents etc) put an interesting spin on getting your boxes re-timed. The issue is that the timing is still experimental, so that some of the changes may be made official as of October 2005. However, these may (unsurprisingly) not be the last of the changes, and all the changes that are currently being proposed and programmed in may not be retained. So, spending ~$100 a box to get the timing done now may be good only until October 2005. No one wants to be shipping boxes (ie, Allstar) to Germany and back, or paying for new chips that can run a pretty penny... not to mention being without boxes while they are in transit.  I believe that the clubs in my division are meeting to determine what they want to do about the implementation of the timing changes soon.
The FIE is using the changes in Jr and Sr world cup events as an experiement. I think the bigest, and possibly most valid, reason for pushing for all boxes to be re-timed is that what works on our old boxes is not necessarily going to work on the new boxes.
All this makes me glad I fence epee.
However, the FIE HAS dropped the change for the 750 g spring. I'm glad to hear that from the standpoint of being an armorer.
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Senior Member
Array
I figure I should drop this into the discussion:
I fence for one of the clubs in the midwest conference, and there has been an ongoing debate about boxes and timing. The issue (per coaches) is that the timing is still experimental, so that some of the changes may be made official as of October 2004 (I think the e-mail has a miss-type of 2005?). However, these may (unsurprisingly) not be the last of the changes, and all the changes that are currently being proposed and programmed in may not be retained. No one wants to be shipping boxes (ie, Allstar) to Germany and back, or paying for new chips that can run a pretty penny... not to mention being without boxes while they are in transit. I believe that the clubs in my division are meeting to determine what they want to do about the implementation of the timing changes soon. Obviously, since some of them are NCAA (ie, NorthWestern, Notre Dame, OSU etc) the changes will potentially be more important for their fencers than, say, myself (even if I did fence foil or sabre).
The FIE is using the changes in Jr and Sr world cup events as an experiement. I think the bigest, and possibly most valid, reason for pushing for all boxes to be re-timed is that what works on our old boxes is not necessarily going to work on the new boxes.
All this makes me glad I fence epee.
However, the FIE HAS dropped the change for the 750 g spring. I'm glad to hear that from the standpoint of being an armorer.
Last edited by MyraTrue; 09-24-2004 at 06:16 PM.
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If you want to train with old timings and compete with a different set of timings, I think, that is a misguided effort. Let's analyze this issue.
A trip to a NAC competition might run on average 800-1000 per person or 1.5K for parent-kid. So, you spend that much, but you do not want to spend 38 (FA-01) or 57 (FA-05) + shipping for an upgrade chip that you can taken out and replaced if the timings change again in a year or two!
Last edited by JEC; 09-28-2004 at 10:04 PM.
Reason: correct price of FA-05
Epee is the Sword.
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Senior Member
Array
Anybody else cares to provide their tips or tribulations upgrading scoring machines?
Is upgradeability a major issue in selection of new boxes?
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The SG-12 does use a socketed chip for it's firmware. It is necessary to remove the board from the case to get at the F/W, since the socket is on the back side of the board. That's not too difficult a task, though, since you just have to unscrew the 4 stand-off nuts that secure the board to the rear of the case. It's interesting to note that Fencing Technologies went to the trouble of sanding away the model number of the firmware chip and one of the other ICs on the board (I can still see the Philips logo on the F/W chip for one of mine)-- reminiscent of how Prieur used to paint over the IDs on the chips use in their boxes. At any rate, once F/W is available for order for the SG-12s it won't be too much trouble to update them.
-Dave "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by."
-Douglas Adams
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