Poll: How do you modify your epee pressure springs?

[Epeecurean]

Epeeists, how do modify the pressure spring to get it close to 750g? Cut a loop, squash it, temper it with flame, leave it as is, or other?

[Gav]

I'll cut it (or more accurately get someone who is good at this sort of thing to cut it). If I need an immediate fix then squashing is the next best option. For the most part I swap out springs and try and find better replacements.

[Pepster]

I usually swap, because springs are cheap I usually have a couple to choose from, and rather than permanently modify a spring or risk kinking it, I'll just swap it out and get a fresh one.

Other than that, I'll Twist & Stretch if it's over, but rarely do I try to get it softer. I'll be forever worried that a director will come by with a 760g weight. I had this sort of failure with Shims before.

-Pep

[Tomas N]

To tell you the truth, it's never occurred to me to try to shorten the spring! Guess that's why I'm still just a D-rated epeeist. (Yeah, that MUST be it!) With this newly found knowledge, the fencing world will soon fall at my feet.

Tomas

[CvilleFencer]

It seems that the weights in my division vary more that the norm. If it just passes my weight there is a good chance that once I get to a tourney one of their weights will fail it so I leave mine set at about 780-800 I would guess. To get it there I will sometimes cut a link but I usually just tighten the spring on the screw post to get it right.

[Epeecurean]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

It seems that the weights in my division vary more that the norm. If it just passes my weight there is a good chance that once I get to a tourney one of their weights will fail it so I leave mine set at about 780-800 I would guess. To get it there I will sometimes cut a link but I usually just tighten the spring on the screw post to get it right.

Ah, I didn't think of that...yes, screwing in the contact spring a bit would require the pressure spring to be pressed down further for the contact spring to touch, thus enabling the pressure spring to hold up a greater weight. Do I have that right?

Hmm, I suppose I could add this to the poll choices, or this type of adjustment could go under 'Other'. When I drew up the poll I was thinking more of the initial adjustment to reduce the weight the pressure spring can lift from 1kg+ to the 750-850 range, not extra-fine tuning.

It's a good suggestion though, & I'll give it a go next time I have to make an adjustment. I can see how tightening the contact spring might solve both a travel problem and a weight problem at the same time.

Cheers,
Epeecurean

[Artisan]

When I get so good that I can elect to hit a counterattack with 753 grams on the fold of a sleeved arm or lovingly feint a warning shot to the ridge of the mask with .5 mm of travel - enough to make the click, but not trigger a light, then I'll worry about getting my springs to totter on the edge of the specification - but by then I'll have a national team armourer to do it for me, right?

Until then I just put in a new spring if it fails, or stretch the crap out of it so it will easily lift the weight. If you want to spend time tweaking: make sure the tip is smooth, dirt free and has no burrs at the edges or in the screw slots, and that the screws are tight. Those few things are way more likely to cost you a touch or a card than a heavy spring not allowing a touch.

[Tomas N]

Originally Posted by Epeecurean

Ah, I didn't think of that...yes, screwing in the contact spring a bit would require the pressure spring to be pressed down further for the contact spring to touch, thus enabling the pressure spring to hold up a greater weight. Do I have that right?


Cheers,
Epeecurean

No, I don't think so. The contact spring is what you need to adjust in order to pass the shim test. There's so little play in there that if you tighten it just a bit, you'll probably fail the shim test. My guess is that it would be nearly impossible to fiddle with the contact spring in such a way to make it a useful way to get the weight test to be just marginal.

Tomas

[CvilleFencer]

Works for me... Oh, wait I see what you are saying now. The contact spring verses the tip spring. Sorry about that I thought we were talking about adjusting the travel on both springs. For the tip spring I usually just clip it or lock in in my vise grips for a bit. Its been a long day already...

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Golly, I've spent hours tweeking my springs to just barely pass shim tests, it probably makes 2-3 touches difference in a DE.

[Epeecurean]

Originally Posted by Artisan

When I get so good that I can elect to hit a counterattack with 753 grams on the fold of a sleeved arm or lovingly feint a warning shot to the ridge of the mask with .5 mm of travel - enough to make the click, but not trigger a light, then I'll worry about getting my springs to totter on the edge of the specification - but by then I'll have a national team armourer to do it for me, right?

Until then I just put in a new spring if it fails, or stretch the crap out of it so it will easily lift the weight. If you want to spend time tweaking: make sure the tip is smooth, dirt free and has no burrs at the edges or in the screw slots, and that the screws are tight. Those few things are way more likely to cost you a touch or a card than a heavy spring not allowing a touch.

OK I take your point -- there are other tweaks which yield more. But I figure as long as I'm in the point cleaning & checking for hitches in the point action, I might as well make sure my spring isn't overly heavy. I don't obsess to get it to exactly 753g, I go for a much safer margin than that! & I don't really mess about with the contact spring much, other than to make sure it passes the guage/shim test properly.

I confess that I do get a secret pleasure out of cleaning & tweaking... I think it gives me confidence to know that my weapon is working properly. Nothing is worse than a wanky weapon!

Time for me to go to practice (which probably also helps me get more points than tweaking).

See ya,
Epeecurean

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by Epeecurean

I don't really mess about with the contact spring much, other than to make sure it passes the guage/shim test properly.

I've found that having a clean tip with a well tweaked contact spring makes far more difference than the weight spring.

[Mergs]

Originally Posted by Epeecurean

:
I confess that I do get a secret pleasure out of cleaning & tweaking... I think it gives me confidence to know that my weapon is working properly. Nothing is worse than a wanky weapon!

Ah the spirit and essence of a true Armorer!

[grotto]

yahooo! I'm different! I cook the springs, yes it takes the temper out of them, but I can get a very supple spring which both passes weight and doesn't feel like a truck spring.

[DHCJr]

Most of the above is very good, but I would like to clear up some things.

First, Grotto don't get caught, I know of a black card that happened because of that.

When cutting springs make sure to reform the cut end. Here are 2 things that can happen. First, when you cut the spring you may cause the edge to go straight down. I found someone who had done it and the spring was 'stronger' because the point pointing down shortened the effective travel. Second this is more a problem for Foil, the cut end if you twist your tip can catch the cup and break the wire.

On stretching the spring only do the ends never the middle. When a spring is new the strength of the spring is consistent, since the difference between the working areas is consistent. When you stretch the spring because some sections are farther apart they are the weakest part, even though overall it is stronger. If the weak point is towards the center, you are more likely to bend sideways there and touch the sides, especially in Foil and cause a short.

Last the FIE when testing for the differences how much force is applied between the flick and a regular attack, the regular attacks were on the order of 2 Kg.

[telkanuru]

I find the stiffest spring in the box and put it in. I have enough problems with my weapons failing shims, that I don't want to be worried about weight. in any case, any hit to the actual body should set it off. If you took all the time that you spent doctoring your weapons and put it into practicing, I bet you would be a good deal better.

[Army Fencer]

Originally Posted by Artisan

When I get so good that I can elect to hit a counterattack with 753 grams on the fold of a sleeved arm or lovingly feint a warning shot to the ridge of the mask with .5 mm of travel - enough to make the click, but not trigger a light, then I'll worry about getting my springs to totter on the edge of the specification - but by then I'll have a national team armourer to do it for me, right?

Agreed. I hit a few very light flicks (much to the consternation of some of my opponents and occasionally my teammates), but I've never found lightening the weight spring to make a bit of difference.

I don't touch it. It's just not worth it to me.

[Epeecurean]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

When cutting springs make sure to reform the cut end. Here are 2 things that can happen. First, when you cut the spring you may cause the edge to go straight down. I found someone who had done it and the spring was 'stronger' because the point pointing down shortened the effective travel. Second this is more a problem for Foil, the cut end if you twist your tip can catch the cup and break the wire.

...

Last the FIE when testing for the differences how much force is applied between the flick and a regular attack, the regular attacks were on the order of 2 Kg.

Ah, just what I was hoping, DHCJr has come in with some armorial advice! I do try to reform the spring end after snipping but of course can't ever get it like the original. Would you put the reformed end at the point side or the cup side, or would you think it makes no difference?

Now a barrage of related questions if you'd be so kind...

Do you think making this sort of adjustment results in more touches or do you think it very marginal, like Artisan, Army Fencer & Telkanuru? How many of the epeeists on the US national team do you think fine tune their springs so it is relatively close to the 750g limit? (Would you do these sorts of adjustments for the nat'l team as Artisan suggests, or do you view that as a fencer's own choice and responsibility?) What would you advocate for a comfortable safety margin for a pressure spring?

Like Artisan, I believe that maintaining a clean point with no hitches and tight grub screws is probably more important than the pressure spring. I just use a Q-tip/cotton swab and some rubbing alcohol, but I recall in the past that some have used graphite powder, WD-40, or other lubricants or cleaners. Do you recommend anything in particular? Any thoughts on Leon Paul's PTFE (teflon?) point? Do you think it is a good way to get a smooth action or do you think it is just a gimmick?

Thanks for you thoughts on this. Like I said, I take pleasure in having well-functioning equipment! I should mention to those concerned about time spent tweaking...it really doesn't take more than a minute or two extra per weapon!!

[DHCJr]

I will try and answer the questions I can. On cutting, I have found out the type of cutters I use affects the results and I don't get it exact, but I do several things WHEN I cut the spring. I will also do some filing to help smoot it. I try and avoid it. I do have a vise that I put springs in and leave them, but that is a slow process and if I am close to 1 Kg, I think that is all it needs. I agree with the others, taking it to 753 or anywhere close is stupid. Having a clean and smooth tip is much more important.

I prefer it down, in spite of what I said above. Because of the extra work, I don't have as much of a problem with it ripping out the wire, but it has happened, with a very nervouse fencer who twist the tip between each touch. I have had more problem with the spring getting past the bottom of the tip and jamming.

As far as adding some lubricant, I have one answer no. The only thing I have used in the past is tuner cleaner that is safe with plastic. But because of the airlines discouraging spray cans and glass containers, I don't usually carry any with me.

Let me give you and example from the World University games and this was before testing of resistence was in the rule book. The French Team loved graphite. Several of the Foils has over 100 ohms resistance. The graphite was suspended in an oil base. But the opposite happened at a Junior Worlds. They were wondering about some touches in Epee that didn't seem to come close. They opened up the tip and poured out the graphite. They decided they couldn't prove they were trying to cheat, they may have just not known what they were doing. They cleaned all this fencer's weapons and unofficially warned them, if they saw graphite again, they would black card them.

As far as the tips from Leon Paul, I have not tried them. I am planning on getting some, but I want to have long-term testing before I say anything. As many who know me, I don't fence, but I do loan out equipment of my own to various fencers to try out different items.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

If you want really smooth tip action, use german tips that match, tweek the springs to a hairsbreadth, and polish the barrels with diamond sand paper in a dremel.