Poll: How do you modify your epee pressure springs?

[shlepzig]

*sigh* Ok, a fishing rod is a poor example because its diameter is not uniform, thus the difficulty in bending it farther from the tip, much like the difficulty in bending an epee. A spring obeys the following: F=kx, which is known as Hooke's law. This simply states that the amount of force the spring pushes back with is equal to the distance the spring is distorted times K, which is the spring constant, and will vary according to material and construction *only*; it is independant of the length of the spring. Thus, when you cut a spring, you decrease the amount of distortion x needed to push the spring a sufficient distance to set off the light, and you therefore decrease the force necessary to set of the light, since F and X are directly proportional.

Fear the ME!

OK TK, from one ME to another.

The epee barrel is A long (this is constant), Epee spring (unmodified) is Xu long (this is also a constant). Force in this instance is whatever the spring pushes up. The distance the the sping is compressed is the diffence between the length of the spring and the length of the barrel (Xu-A)

K the spring constant, is whatever, it's constant we don't care much.

Fu = k (Xu-A) If F in this case is greater that 750G then you would want to reduce F.

Lets clip the spring a little bit such that Xm < Xu. Therefore (Xm-A) < (Xu-A). Fm = k (Xm-A).

Thus Fm < Fu

Hope nobody takes offense at Fu as a notation, I just realized.

Shlep.

PS. I just leave 'em as is if they pass, I would rather be fencing, and my wife does not like epee parts strewn around the living room at night.

[sword_fixer]

I believe that you should not modify the weight spring at all, but compress it untill it is at the correct weight. continued compression or stretching will only encourage failure, so after a few times discard it and spend 30p on a new one.
Practice will enable accuracy to within 2 10p pieces(dont know what that is in nickels, sorry).
If you are worried about it failing after a bout, why not have one or two weapons for the pool rounds, then finely adjusted for de's. Also test the weapon AFTER the bout, then you know if its working or not and still have time to adjust it.
A cut weight spring will develop mechanical hysterisis faster than an uncut one and therefore fail faster, plus unless reformed perfectly it will interfere with the action of the travel or tip.

Heating introduces a constitutional change in the metal of the spring and alters the spring temper. Shlepzig has given probably the best definition I've seen on the web.

I like the fact that if my weapon fails the weight test it's because it's F=kx ed

[elberto]

ok so I call epee pig sticking...
sabre wacking sticks and foil.. fairy wands...
but I fence all three weapons and do not mean to make fun of any of the weapons (or people!!!).

Just swap the spring over, crush it or hit hard....

to icrease the weight strech the spring (when under 750 grams....)

just adding my 2 cents to the discussion

[Alain]

Epeeists, how do modify the pressure spring to get it close to 750g? Cut a loop, squash it, temper it with flame, leave it as is, or other?

I've always cut the pressure spring, as it's what my daddy taught me to do

[kalivor]

Agreed. I hit a few very light flicks (much to the consternation of some of my opponents and occasionally my teammates), but I've never found lightening the weight spring to make a bit of difference.

I don't touch it. It's just not worth it to me.

Apparently you've never found that the spring in your tip can hold up not one but two epee weights!

I expected more, but was out of weights to stack.

[Mr Epee]

If you use good parts, then you should never get stuck with a wicked heavy spring.

Most of the German Springs I've seen in the past few years haven't needed any adjusting, and quite a few of the hyper-heavy tips are poor armouring, and not because of the springs.

That said... in my time, I've cut, burned, boiled, smashed pressure springs for many various reasons... I've even butterflied a few contact springs (just to see how it worked).

I've even "fixed" a body cord so that I could flick it gently with my finger, and set off the light... (I even took this cord to an NAC, and had it passed by the head armourer.)

I never used any of these methods to cheat in a competition, but these are the things that all epeeist should know how to do, so that they are aware of how to spot possible cheats.

You can't spot a cheater unless you know what to look for in the first place.

[kalivor]

If you use good parts, then you should never get stuck with a wicked heavy spring.

Trust me, I wasn't claiming to be happy with the spring ...

[mrbiggs]

Apparently you've never found that the spring in your tip can hold up not one but two epee weights!

I haven't.

I'd imagine that if your spring was that stiff, it would be immediately apparent when you tried to depress it. Then, of course, some spring cutting/squishing/replacing is pretty necessary.

[DHCJr]

I remember a batch of fully wired Foil blades with a double R in a sunburst for $5 that Long Beach State bought. Most did not even make the strip. They were like some of the Sabre blades today. If you tried to balance the blades, the tang would break. All would hold up 2 foil weights, most would hold up an Epee and Foil weight and we had a couple that almost held up 2 Epee weights + a Foil Weight.

In other words, I replaced each and every spring.

[fencinman89]

How many of the epeeists on the US national team do you think fine tune their springs so it is relatively close to the 750g limit? (Would you do these sorts of adjustments for the nat'l team as Artisan suggests, or do you view that as a fencer's own choice and responsibility?)

Im am Armouring "Nerd" according to some of the Referee (i suppose) "Nerds" in my division and I worked at Nationals, NACs, Sectionals, Collegiate Opens, and ive seen people who have been fencing for years who dont know how to tighten the barrels on their weapons. I was just wondering how many people on our US National Team actually do thier own armouring, when they probaly have an armourer to do it all for them.....
-Tre'

[DHCJr]

Depends on the weapon and the individual. There are usually a few on each of the trips, that want to learn a little. Mostly the Epeeist, a little less the Foilist, very little from the Sabreist.

One thing you must consider, there is only an Armorer at the World Championships. At the World Cups, there is no Team Armorer.

[KD5MDK]

As a sabreist armorer-trainee, I have to say there's not a lot for us to learn. Body cords, mask cords, and if there's something wrong with your weapon, drop a new blade in it. Nothing to it.

Those point weapons, well, that's where the learning takes place.

[Purple Fencer]

As a sabreist armorer-trainee, I have to say there's not a lot for us to learn. Body cords, mask cords, and if there's something wrong with your weapon, drop a new blade in it. Nothing to it.

Your time will come, my son....

[Fencing Jesus]

The key here is discipline.

You have to show the spring who's boss. If it starts to get a little stronger, and you ignore the problem, then you are basicly saying that it's the behavior is acceptable.

Jump on the problem right away.

When the spring starts to get a little stiff. Stop. Take it out immediately, put it somewhere dark and damp. Leave it there for a few days. Then once YOU feel the punishment is complete, go and ask if it's ready to be pressed back into service.

Top it off with a long speech about how you worry that someday you might accidently forget about him altogether, and leave him in that little box.

That should modify it just fine. Trust me your doing the world a favor

[EPEEDAD]

A PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT ENGINEERS PERSPECTIVE:

"SQUASH IT",

A. PLACE THE FLAT ENDS OF THE SPRING IN A DRILL PRESS OR OTHER VISE B. COMPRESS IT TO ALMOST BOTTOM OUT OR ABOUT 50% OF THE LENGTH WHEN COMPRESSED IN THE TIP.

PATIENCE- TOO MUCH AND YOU RUIN THE SPRING TEMPER (SPRINGINESS).

IF YOU HAVE A GENERAL IDEA OF HOW MUCH TO REDUCE IT BY, YOU CAN CHECK FOR CHANGES IN THE "SPRING RATE" BY TAKING A RELIABLE WEIGHT SCALE AND COMPRESS THE SPRING AND READ THE SCALE.

NOW IF YOU WANT TO MAKE IT STIFFER- CUT IT SLIGHTLY WITH A DREMEL TOOL BUT KEEP IT COOL BY SPRAYING WATER AS YOU CUT.

COIL SPRING SPRING RATES (STIFFNESS) ARE A FACTOR OF THE TOTAL COILED WIRE SPIRAL LENGTH (not height). ...HOWEVER IT IS NOT PROPORTIONAL- FOR A 20% CHANGE IN STIFFNESS YOU MAY ONLY NEED 5? OF THE LENGTH TRIMMED

SPRING (LUNGE) FORWARD...