Hiding a hit made while falling.

[Epee Scherma]

Suppose an epee fencer does a rassemblement. This is a rather off balance position. The person is on the balls of their feet in the attention/salute position while extending and leaning forward slightly to counter attack the opponent. Now lets say the fencer begans to lose total control and start to fall forward.

According to rule t.87:
"All bouts must preserve the character of a courteous and frank encounter. All irregular actions (flèche attack which finishes with a collision jostling the opponent, disorderly fencing, irregular movements on the piste, hits achieved with violence, hits made while falling) are strictly forbidden (cf. t.114–t.120). Should such an offence occur, any hit scored by the fencer at fault is annulled." (LP Unofficial FIE Rules)

However, in his fall he turns it too a lunge like action and ends in a passata soto and scores the touch. So my question is, would a combination of a reassemblement - passata soto where the touch is scored result in the referee haulting the action and annuling the touch because the fencer looked like he/she was loosing their balance? It seems to be a rather precarious combination of moves (standing tall to tripod position). Or would it go unnoticed. It's kind of like hiding a fall to avoid annullment by using another move.

[Katman]

That's interesting. The rules allow for a passata soto; I suppose this would the same situation as if you lunged, then fell over your front knee and had to place your off hand on the ground. I don't think this means you've fallen so I wouldn't see a need to annul the touch.

Unless, of course, I'm mistaken.

[Artisan]

Suppose an epee fencer does a rassemblement. This is a rather off balance position. The person is on the balls of their feet in the attention/salute position while extending and leaning forward slightly to counter attack the opponent. Now lets say the fencer begans to lose total control and start to fall forward.

However, in his fall he turns it too a lunge like action and ends in a passata soto and scores the touch. So my question is, would a combination of a reassemblement - passata soto where the touch is scored result in the referee haulting the action and annuling the touch because the fencer looked like he/she was loosing their balance? It seems to be a rather precarious combination of moves (standing tall to tripod position). Or would it go unnoticed. It's kind of like hiding a fall to avoid annullment by using another move.

By definition, the above action you describe so well with accepted fencing specific terminology means to me that the action fits within the oeuvre of fencing itself and so must be acceptable.

Besides the rule concerns falling, not "almost falling" or "looking like about to be falling" The real question is what constitutes a fall... two feet and one hand on the ground is permitted.

[Zilverzmurfen]

...the fencer looked like he/she was loosing their balance?

I am not an expert on the FIE rules, but you said it yourself:
Looked like he/she was losing balance. Ie. balance not lost and therefore a fully valid touch.

[acaba]

I've made some pretty crazy actions while I've been fencing, even ones that are completely off-ballance and look really awuful. As long as you land on your feet (or 2 feet + 1 hand), you must have had some control and it is not falling. If we carded for fencing that only LOOKED awuful and off ballance, no beginner could ever finish a tournament!

Here is a small example of proper application of this rule: My friend one time was retreating and tripped over his feet. He made a backwards roll, and when he came up, made a flick to his opponent's hand. The ref tried to card him for uncontrolled fencing. My friend argued that he was in total control, hence the nice flick to the hand. The ref changed his ruling and gave the card for turning the back!

[downunder]

Here is a small example of proper application of this rule: My friend one time was retreating and tripped over his feet. He made a backwards roll, and when he came up, made a flick to his opponent's hand. The ref tried to card him for uncontrolled fencing. My friend argued that he was in total control, hence the nice flick to the hand. The ref changed his ruling and gave the card for turning the back!

i think that if there ever was a justification for card for abnormal action that would do it.

Otherwise halt should be called for the falling, and no card or hit given.

[Rolls]

I admit that I often will take a deep lunge where I feel the need to place my off-weapon hand on the ground to steady myself. If every touch where I did this was annulled....

So, what is the rule for falling in the US anyway? It seems like the rule was stricken, then replaced, the modified, then turned upside down. Anyone care to elaborate on when loss of balance matters and what the penalty is? What about when it happends multiple times in a bout?

Rolls.

[cfaustus]

I am wondering whether the scenario opening this thread actually happened or was a hypothetical.

First of all, resemblement is ussually done to counter a low attack to the front leg/foot. Hence the opponent's weapon would be low.

The second action described sounds more like a cartoccio rather than a passata soto (passata sotos are done by drawing the back foot back to avoid a hit to the high outside - cartoccios also evade a high line attack but by moving the front foot forward and may often require opposition to the outside to ensure safety of the fencer doing the cartoccio). Either of these actions would be VERY risky to do against an attack where the opponent's blade was in the low line because one would very likely wind up falling on the point of the opponent's weapon.

Also, think of the timing of this... both the resemblement and the cartoccio (or passata soto) are counter attacks. Therefore, if one did a complete ressemblement, but failed to hit, and then fell precariously to a tri-pod position there would be plenty of time for the initial attacker to redirect his weapon as a remise. If one were to try to get control of the initial attackers blade during the fall one would most likely have to lower their point and transport the opponent's blade to the outside... Due to the large arc of motion necessary, one would be bringing the attacking blade too inline with one's most vlnerable target area in the tripod position (the head or back).

If in deed this action has been performed, the executor probably has more luck to thank than skill if he did not recieve a double hit. Either the fencer is the most controlled fencer ever, or his opponent was just too slow or inexperienced to take advantage of the huge opening this series of actions leaves one open to. Personally, I think it highly unlikely that as described the actions above could be done in a controlled manner and as such would probably lean more towards disorderly fencing or more likely a hit scored while falling. Perhaps more information could prove otherwise ...

[Katman]

I admit that I often will take a deep lunge where I feel the need to place my off-weapon hand on the ground to steady myself. If every touch where I did this was annulled....

So, what is the rule for falling in the US anyway? It seems like the rule was stricken, then replaced, the modified, then turned upside down. Anyone care to elaborate on when loss of balance matters and what the penalty is? What about when it happends multiple times in a bout?

Rolls.

I do believe that if you fall during the process of making a touch or fall to avoid an incoming touch that you are carded and any touches you might have recieved are annulled.

A whole bunch of stuff.

I think he means the resemblement followed by a fall forward into a lunge position but with the torso down, head held up and the off hand on the piste, somewhat like the finishing position of a passata soto (but not strictly how the move is executed, yes?) I do believe this can be executed without giving the apperance of losing control and niether position is illegal. I would see no reason to card unless, of course, I'm mistaken.

[downunder]

I do believe that if you fall during the process of making a touch or fall to avoid an incoming touch that you are carded and any touches you might have recieved are annulled.

falling whilst making a hit (assumes a light is on) is a yellow card and annuls the hit.

falling to avoid being hit is not specifically a yellow card offence.

[Katman]

Really? Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.