Organic food debate

[Gav]

In an effort to start some debate I thought I would pose the question: who amongst us buys organic food? And why?

For my own part I do not 'buy' the organic food lobby's arguments and will not buy it. I do buy into ethical food but only assuage any guilt that I live in a prosperous first world country and that, there is a chance that we may be exploiting those less well of than ourselves. Please note that one does not follow the other. Just because I buy food that has an ethical stamp (read Dolphn friendly Tuna or Cafe Direct coffee) that I buy into the attached clap trap that goes with it. I am quite willing to admit that those choices for ethical food that I make are emotional choices, not scientific ones. So the question is, why does everyone else believe the scientifically unproven claims of the 'organic' lobby?

Oh, and before I forget this has been partly instigated by me coming across 'organic' salt! What a load of rubbish.

[annacattiva]

I'm really rather fond of the idea of fruits and vegetables that aren't covered with pesticides, but in general, it's also more expensive than non-organic, and I can't afford it.

[vegan]

Well,
Gav, I buy organic as much as I can . . . . I am quite fond of the idea that my food is grown with natural (as in non man made) methods: read no chemicals. This is great becuase I don't feel I need to eat posions!
Cheers,
B.
Ps. If you want debate- what about eating meat? animal products and so on?

[Gav]

Vegan, I think you need to be better informed. Organic food is indeed grown with chemicals. To say that it doesn't is fallacous. For your reading entertainment I have attached an interesting pdf.

If you want to discuss whether I should eat meat or not start your own thread. I'll quite happily chime in there but not here. Here, I want to discuss the 'Organic' debate.

I nearly forgot to type this. I have lived and worked on an Organic farm.

[darius]

I love organically-grown food. My wallet does not. My wallet is my master, I will obey.

I love free-range beef. Happy meat is tasty meat. Unfortunately, my wallet vetoes that too.

Just to add tinder (and gasoline!) to Ben's clear attempt at starting a flamewar: Really, there is no moral save-the-animals argument for vegetarianism. If you have ever been to a factory farm, you would realize that the things in the cages are not animals, but hormone-mutated sacks of meat pickled in antibiotics. In fact, I'd argue that we have a moral duty to put these creatures out of their misery.

And then, we should celebrate their sacrifice by serving them with a fine hollandaise sauce.

Can you believe that after writing that, I'm hungry?

darius

[geezer]

??? ...not sure where to go with the limited response choices. As a rule I don't eat food that is inorganic, that's certain. Fertilizers aren't poisons, pesticides are, but to much of it has ecologic side effects not directly related to the plant itself. What's upsetting is how plants take up heavy metals and complex molecules related to deseases and pose a health risk, (regardless of the lack of pesticides), human and animal wastes, ect.

One of the major pesticide chemical constituants is methyl bromide and this is a MAJOR player in upper atmospheric ozone distruction. So, we kill some pesky bugs and pollute the atmosphere, and fertilize the plants which over doses the soil with excess nitrogen which polutes our water resourses. Joy, as in, NOT!!! Apparently, being alive on this planet can kill you.

n i c

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Gav

In an effort to start some debate I thought I would pose the question: who amongst us buys organic food? And why?

The problem with the label "organic" is that the standards as to what qualifies as organic varies from state to state as well as from country to country.

The USDA (U.S. Department of Agriculture) defines organic food as:

Originally Posted by USDA

The production of organic foods does not use pesticides or synthetic (or sewage-based) fertilizers for plant materials and hormones and antibiotics for animals, does not allow genetic engineering or the use of radiation, and emphasizes the utilization of renewable resources as well as conservation of land and water.

Even this standard, as I'm sure you can see, has considerable room for interpretation. And as in the past, anything generating an interest in the market will be exploited to its maximum potential by industry.

In the past, "organic" was a way for smaller farmers or co-ops to differentiate themselves from the large congolemerate industrial farms. This is no longer the case as the profit potential has been seized by the mega-farms.

Personally, I like the idea of organic foods. They tend to be smaller, tastier, but more expensive. As a result, I eat a mix of organic and nonorganic.

As for the science. There are studies that show that organic foods contain more antioxidants than nonorganic foods. In addition, organic foods SHOULD (dependant on the standard) contain less pesticide residue, fewer food additives, lower antibiotics (if you eat meat), and less likelihood of contaminations. This is supposing that a decent standard is adhered to.

In countries such as the U.S. where food shortages are no longer an issue, The decreased yields of organic farming are not a problem. So if you are willing to pay more, go for it.

I have yet to see the health damaging effects of organic food...

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by darius

a flamewar: Really, there is no moral save-the-animals argument for vegetarianism. If you have ever been to a factory farm, you would realize that the things in the cages are not animals, but hormone-mutated sacks of meat pickled in antibiotics. In fact, I'd argue that we have a moral duty to put these creatures out of their misery.

I think you just inadvertantly made the best argument for vegetarianism, well... other than the complete list of ingredients for hot dogs...

Thanks.

[kalivor]

I actually prefer organic food ... it tastes better. That said, I tend to buy the cheapest available healthy-looking veggies, which (except on very bad days) isn't the organic stuff.

Of course, it doesn't help that they don't really have any standards for "organic" here in Canada. You could slap an "organic" label on Kentucky Fried Chicken, and it wouldn't violate any laws ...

[oiuyt]

Don't think it's worth paying extra for. Similar to why I buy from the cheapest gas station rather than Exxon/Mobil/whomever. Would I buy organic if it were the same price? Yeah, probably. If it's close but a bit above? Nope, probably not.

Note: yes I realize that there's a smaller difference between different gas stations than between organic/non-organic, but the idea is close to the same for me.

-B :)

[Soldier]

The main arguments I see for organic food are normally "it's all natural and not illegal, so it must be good for you."

The same argument was used in the early 1900s for, no joke, Radon Water.

[DangerMouse]

I buy organic when I can. There are reduced problems with pesticide and fertilizer runoff and it usually tastes better and is higher quality.

[neevel]

The chief benefit that I can see to organic farming is the general environmental reduction of pesticide and fertilizer runoff. Of course, whatever results on that front that can be achieved by the relatively small number of farms going entirely organic would be easily matched by making a moderate reduction in the amount of pesticide and fertilzer use among the bulk of non-organic agriculture.

I don't see personal risk to be an compelling issue. The amounts of pesticide that may be left on produce by the time it gets to the shelf of your local Pick'N'Save are little more than traces. The likelihood of such small amounts causing problems is negligable. Remember that, because a substance in larger quantity X is shown to be harmful, it does not follow that it will be harmful in smaller quantity Y. There is often a toxic threshold, below which the body is perfectly able to flush something out of its system with no ill effect.

Furthermore, if the risk of harm is doubled or tripled, you're often talking about going from 1 X infinitesimal, to 3 X infinitesimal. On the list of health risks, things like smoking, not exercising, over-eating, and eating a hight fat & cholesteral diet are orders of magnitude beyond anything else. If you're a smoker who worries about trace amounts of pesticide on the lettuce that garnishes your 7-times-a-week, 1/2-lb, free-range-fed, RgBH-free organic beef & bacon cheeseburger, you need to reassess you priorities. Eating a balanced, healthy diet with plenty of vegetables is a beneficial thing-- whether or not the vegetables are organic isn't going to make much difference.

Another thing to be aware of is that there are an awful lot of people in the organic/health food sector who are simply out to sell you something- often a product, sometimes an ideology. Snake-oil salesmen abound, and if you don't become a rigorous skeptic you're bound to throw at least some of your money away. I've given up counting the times that people advocating vegetarianism or veganism from a moral/ethical standpoint have fallen into the mistake of using questionable or flat-out false "research" to try and argue their case (which only harms their efforts in the long run). Anti-irradiation arguments are based on particularly spurious worries ("we think that the gamma rays might somehow cause some sort of chemical change, but we can't point to anything demonstrating that").

There is one benefit to some organic foods that has nothing to do with the way they're grown. Many food co-ops or farmers' markets make an effort to get their produce from nearby organic farmers. The produce sourced that way is very often better than what you find at the Wal-Mart Supercenter because it's simply much fresher, coming to the shelves direct from the fields instead of sitting in a refrigerated warehouse for a spell and then being trucked cross-country. Of course, you're only going to get that fresher produce in-season. Still, the truly fresh produce is incomparably better. The higher prices it commands also allow smaller farms to be economically viable.

[Zelda]

Organic to me is nicer. The flavour is better, the size is easier (I live alone and some veggies due to their size will rot in my crisper). When I lived in the UK the safeways organic milk was gorgeous (and probably responsible for most of my weight gain).

Also if you buy "certified" organic products you know the farmers have to conform to certain criteria.

[ReverseLunge]

To say that organic farming is better is to discredit and insult real farmers who strive day and night to bring you the best quality fruits and vegetables.

BTW, the best meat is not the happy meat. The best meat comes from Wagyu cows (a.k.a. Kobe beef.) These cows are stuck in a 4x10 stall and don't get to move even ten feet their whole lives.

[The0ne]

I work on an organic farm during the summer, so my opinion is probably quite biased. . .

For me, the main draw of organic is that usually farmers (not corporations, farmers) actually make money when they sell organic foom. Most farmers who do no sell organic food or market organic milk, etc., work year after year, barely breaking even. I am willing to pay a little extra for my food to make sure that farmers actually make money.

Also, I can only see organic food as being better for you than non-organic food. True, in Gav's "organic hoax" pdf thing, it seems that organic is not that much different that non-organic, but that's a massively baised article. In my experience, there are a ton of chemicals that non-organic farmers regularly use, that are not so good for you, that organic farmers do not. That is my secondary reason for preferring organic stuff.

[mrbiggs]

Whatevah! I eat what I want.

Which is the cheapest food for the taste.

I'm very stingy.

And hey, I play a sport, I can eat something bad everyone once in a while.

[Rogue]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

BTW, the best meat is not the happy meat. The best meat comes from Wagyu cows (a.k.a. Kobe beef.) These cows are stuck in a 4x10 stall and don't get to move even ten feet their whole lives.

Cooked medium over an open flame with garlic mashed potatos, grilled veggie medley( organic or not, don't care) finished off with a snifter of B&B.
mmm mmm good.

[pacer]

With 3 health food grocery stores near by, I frequently buy organic fruits and veggies. The produce seems fresher that the conventional stores carry. For years I would only buy meat and poultry that was hormone, antibiotic free. (that was my reaction to having a family member with a pituitary tumor). I eat much less meat now and find the local "natural" beef is better tasting . I buy hormone free poultry through a co-op and only buy soy or bovine growth hormone free dairy.. But as they say, just hand over the chocolate and no one gets hurt.

[cornflower]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

To say that organic farming is better is to discredit and insult real farmers who strive day and night to bring you the best quality fruits and vegetables.

BTW, the best meat is not the happy meat. The best meat comes from Wagyu cows (a.k.a. Kobe beef.) These cows are stuck in a 4x10 stall and don't get to move even ten feet their whole lives.

Speaking of animal captivity, that sort of reminds me of PETA and their stupid animal campaigns. God, they're soooo freaking extremist. It's all like "SAVE THE FLEAS, DON'T USE FLEA BATHS!" something to that effect. My friend randomly sent me a few PETA stickers. They're blue stickers that say, "Save Hermit Crabs! CAPTIVITY KILLS!" WTF?! *rolls eyes* PUH-leeeeeaze.