New female fencers.

[cornflower]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I have no idea. Asian and oriental are both just adjectives. Most of my Chinese friend would rather be categorized as Chinese than just Asian. Same with my Japanese and Korean friend. BTW, can you tell the different Orientals/Asians apart?

Yeah, I sort of can... in Vancouver, there's three major groups of Asians: Korean, Chinese and Japanese. I don't know how to explain it, but when you see them everyday, you can start to notice the distinctions.

[Sarah]

I'm able to diferentiate most Asians, living in Hawai'i really does that to you. You have the Japanese, the Chinese, the Polynesians, the Samoans, the Koreans... and then with those you can tell the rest apart pretty easily.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by achilleus

Am I the only one thinking that RL lifted this story off another website like his 'Vietnam War Vet' speech, and 'his' photo?

Where's the F@gg0t?

That thought struck me too. I did a google search, but it turned up nothing whatsoever.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[cowpaste]

I'm super Asian myself, but I have trouble telling the difference between Korean and Japanese. Anyway, as for Oriental v. Asian, I don't mind being called Asian. I'm used to it actually, but Asian does indeed include Indians and Philippinos and stuff. Oriental works, but I think it is rare, at least where I live.

[HillBilly]

Sarah you live in Hawai'i?

[Sarah]

*correction lived. As of now I'm stuck as a mainlander... in B.C. (I move around a lot)

[HillBilly]

Dad in the Navy?

I was trying to work out what the hell the B.C. stands for in Hawai'i...

[Louweasel]

This oriental/asian debate is interesting - here in the UK oriental is not only acceptable as far as I know, but indeed the only term in use apart from the more specific Chinese/Japanese etc. Asian is used only to refer to people of Asian/Pakistani origin or similar, which is obviously a completely different ethnic group. E.g., you might say that walking down Tooting (in South London) High Street it's evident that there is a large Asian community just by looking in the shop windows where you can see lots of saris and salwar kameezes, indian jewellery, Bollywood films. Lots of good places to go for a curry too. There is a BBC digital radio station particularly aimed at British Asians and it plays a lot of bhangra music.

[mrbiggs]

I personally never understood the term "Asian". Iraqis are Asian. Russians are Asian. Indonesians are Asian. The Chinese are also Asian. Asia is a big continent, and none of these people share much in language, tradition, or culture. Oriental is refering to people of the orient (China, Japan, Korea, etc.). It IS kinda racist because it's defined, more or less, as people with, well, slanted eyes. I never met someone who was offended at the term "Oriental", but where I come from, we never really use that term. (Except for me....I moved. ) But hey, if they want to be called Asian, a completely undescriptive term, then that's their right.

Personally, I try to do my best to learn to differentiate so I can call them Chinese, Japenese, etc. But it's hard to expect that of everybody.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I have no idea. Asian and oriental are both just adjectives. Most of my Chinese friend would rather be categorized as Chinese than just Asian. Same with my Japanese and Korean friend.

Of course. There are however situations where it becomes tedious to name very nationality individually in order to talk about a generality. Just like we may talk about apples, instead of naming every variety. And just like it is often useful to say "Europe" instead of "France and Germany and Holland and Belgium and Italy and Greece and Austria and Denmark and Liechtenstein and Andorra and Hungary and...."

So too one occasionally needs a general descriptive for persons from the congeries of countries called "Asia". So why not "Asians"? ( There is as far as I know no "Orientia". )

Now, my argument to the person who objected to being called "Oriental" was that "the Orient" had at times included a wider area than Asia proper. That seemed to cut no mustard with her, though. And since she was of Japanese extraction I felt she probably had a better grasp of the whole issue...

BTW, can you tell the different Orientals/Asians apart?

Can you tell a Canadian from an America from a Briton from an Australian? Absent outside cues like accent or dress, I mean? Can you tell the various Scandinavian nationals apart? And why does it matter, anyway?

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Louweasel

This oriental/asian debate is interesting - here in the UK oriental is not only acceptable as far as I know, but indeed the only term in use apart from the more specific Chinese/Japanese etc. Asian is used only to refer to people of Asian/Pakistani origin or similar

Stange. Perhaps it's a regional thing.

This is from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient

"The Orient employs a Latin term Oriens referring simply to the rising of the sun, to imply "the East". Similar terms are the French-derived "Levant" and "Anatolia" from the Greek anatole, two further locutions for the direction in which the sun rises.

"Orient" and "Oriental" have been used in English to refer to both Near and Far Eastern countries.

In the late 20th century, the terms "Orient" and "Oriental" are increasingly viewed as archaic or politically incorrect, with Asian-American activists and other opponents of the term arguing that it conveys cliché fantasies and stereotypical imagery such as seductive women and dangerous men living amid luxuries in a static decadent society full of superstitions but with a glorious but long-gone past. However, others argue that this is an example of political correctness gone too far, and believe there is nothing wrong with the term."

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I personally never understood the term "Asian". Iraqis are Asian. Russians are Asian.

Well...Iraq in in Asia Minor, to be sure...and parts of Russia are in Asia, but most of what we think of as Russia, the part west of the Urals, is in Europe...

The problem with defining things geographically is that both Europe and Asia are part of the same landmass, Eurasia. In that, ALL residents, Swedes to Japanese, are Asian...or European. If we begin subdividing, why stop at Europe and Asia? The Arabian and Indian peninsulas are clearly subcontinents of their own...Japan, the Philippines and Indonesia are islands---should they be distinct? ( So is Britain part of Europe, or Eurasia? ) Should Australia be thought of as Asia? Hawaii? It's all terribly confusing.

Oriental is refering to people of the orient (China, Japan, Korea, etc.).

Actually, the term seems more or less synonymous with "Asian":

Main Entry: ori·en·tal
Pronunciation: "or-E-'en-t&l
Function: adjective
1 often capitalized : of, relating to, or situated in Asia
2 a : of superior grade, luster, or value b : being corundum or sapphire but simulating another gem in color
3 often capitalized, sometimes offensive : ASIAN
4 capitalized : of, relating to, or constituting the biogeographic region that includes Asia south and southeast of the Himalayas and the Malay Archipelago west of Wallace's line
- ori·en·tal·ly /-t&l-E/ adverb

( That's from Merriam-Webster )

oriental
SYLLABICATION: o·ri·en·tal
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: ôr-ntl, r- KEY
ADJECTIVE: 1. often Oriental Of or relating to the countries of the Orient or their peoples or cultures; eastern.
2. Oriental Of or designating the biogeographic region that includes Asia south of the Himalaya Mountains and the islands of the Malay Archipelago.
3. Lustrous and valuable: oriental pearls.
4a. Of or relating to a genuine or superior gem: an oriental ruby. b. Relating to or designating corundum that resembles another stone in color.
NOUN: often Oriental Often Offensive An Asian.
OTHER FORMS: ori·ental·ly —ADVERB

USAGE NOTE: Asian is now strongly preferred in place of Oriental for persons native to Asia or descended from an Asian people. The usual objection to Oriental—meaning “eastern”—is that it identifies Asian countries and peoples in terms of their location relative to Europe. However, this objection is not generally made of other Eurocentric terms such as Near and Middle Eastern. The real problem with Oriental is more likely its connotations stemming from an earlier era when Europeans viewed the regions east of the Mediterranean as exotic lands full of romance and intrigue, the home of despotic empires and inscrutable customs. At the least these associations can give Oriental a dated feel, and as a noun in contemporary contexts (as in the first Oriental to be elected from the district) it is now widely taken to be offensive. However, Oriental should not be thought of as an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. As with Asiatic, its use other than as an ethnonym, in phrases such as Oriental cuisine or Oriental medicine, is not usually considered objectionable.

( From bartleby.com...and see the usage note. )

Personally, I try to do my best to learn to differentiate so I can call them Chinese, Japenese, etc. But it's hard to expect that of everybody.

However, there are occasions when a general term is wanted. In discussing, say, the geopolitics or history of the region, one cannot list every single nation instead of saying "Asia"...any more than one can avoid using "North America" by naming every state of the US and every province of Canada every time the region comes up in conversation.

[mrbiggs]

This "Asian" thing is kinda stupid. It's like calling Indians "Native Americans". It's just a way of sounding PC by using an odd term rather than the generally accepted one. But hey, if they prefer to be called Asians, I guess that's their choice.

Inquartata, it is NOT true that Chinese vs Koreans is the same as Brittish vs American. I know several white people who can tell the difference, and most people who live in or frequently visit the countries can as well.

I didn't realize that "oriental" was defined as being almost synonymous with "Asian" (The real Asia, not the one we're discussing). I've never heard it used that way.

P.S. I'm enjoying discussing the advantages and disadvantages of the term "Asian" in a thread labeled "New female fencers" that started out as a rant about how all female fencers are just looking for men.

[cowpaste]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I personally never understood the term "Asian". Iraqis are Asian. Russians are Asian. Indonesians are Asian. The Chinese are also Asian. Asia is a big continent, and none of these people share much in language, tradition, or culture. Oriental is refering to people of the orient (China, Japan, Korea, etc.). It IS kinda racist because it's defined, more or less, as people with, well, slanted eyes. I never met someone who was offended at the term "Oriental", but where I come from, we never really use that term. (Except for me....I moved. ) But hey, if they want to be called Asian, a completely undescriptive term, then that's their right.

Personally, I try to do my best to learn to differentiate so I can call them Chinese, Japenese, etc. But it's hard to expect that of everybody.

So you don't call yourself American?

[cowpaste]

I'm Oriental, and it is 100% not offensive to me.

[mrbiggs]

When I call myself "American", I am referring to "America", the country. Like the one Dubya uses in his speeches.

Actually, I don't usually use that term. It's not accurate, and it IS alot like Asian-it's a misnomer that has come to be synonymous with the word it replaces, but it sounds more patriotic.

"I'm proud to be an American!"

"I'm proud to be from the U.S.!"

Which sounds more patriotic?