Sabre Mask Windows

[JAySE SUiCiDE]

Originally Posted by Artisan

I wonder... are the folks complaining about transparent masks the same people who complain about flicks, pistol grips, shouting, bad sportsmanship, modern fencing sneakers and electric scoring?

oh yeah, lets not complain about bad sportsmanship..because why should we be complaining about it, you should just accept it!... </ sarcasm>

no, I don't like the masks. Yes, I love flicks (I'm foil and sabre, yeah, new, aint it?), and yes, I love my pistol grip. Shouting to excess can be a tad annoying though at times..and I dont like Adidas, just because I'm anti-big corporations like that . And no, electric scoring is fine by my book. But yes, you attempt at criticism was noticed...

Originally Posted by Artisan

And as far as being unsafe... Mesh masks apparently fail all the time. Isn't that why we test them?
.....
Come to think of it, haven't the few head injuries that have occurred in this century happened with mesh masks?

hmm..I'm pretty sure the point of the whole mask-test is to fail them then SO YOU DON'T DIE ON THE STRIP. It's not like its a test, where you get a penalty for your mask not passing..yeah, what's your point? So, they fail. I would be a LOT more afraid with wearing a mask with lexan, because there's no way (that I know of..) to test it, and..hell, its a piece of plastic. c'mon.

yeah, mesh masks cause injuries. And if the lexan masks had been used nearly as long as mesh masks, we'd probably see injuries with them, too. If you think about it..with the lexan masks, there has to be a sort of |_| shape all around as the frame to hold in implace, right? So, basically, there's a piece of metal aiming right at your face, inside of your mask... hmmm, seems safe by me..

hmm..me thinks Inq is a lawyer as a side job

~Jes

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Golly, what a clever locution. Bet you thought that up all by yourself.

Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or something?

Jeeze, Inq... Sorry to ruffle you. I think you are right I must have gotten up on the wrong side - or, I just got up too early. I meant only to state my opinion with wit and a bit of sarcasm - not to personally attack you. I was just having some fun. I'm happy to see you have a pulse though.
Accept my apologies for any unintended affront to your sensibilities.

But for the sake of argument; and since I'm NOT a sabre fencer, I ask this honestly: did the removal of the back of the hand as target matter as much as the removal of the face? I made the assumption that the point attack is a small percentage of the sabre game, and that those to the face are even lower in percentage, so therefore could not represent a "fundamental" change in the game.

As an epeeist, if the toe target or the head were removed from fair play, I'd be dissappointed but don't think it would radically alter the game. You could still feint high and go low and vice versa... It would make the ref's job tougher with off targets... or mean wearing either a lame jump suit which I'd hate for the discomfort and expense, or lame spats (which would be hard to picture) and sabre mask to rule out target area.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Artisan

But for the sake of argument; and since I'm NOT a sabre fencer, I ask this honestly: did the removal of the back of the hand as target matter as much as the removal of the face? I made the assumption that the point attack is a small percentage of the sabre game, and that those to the face are even lower in percentage, so therefore could not represent a "fundamental" change in the game.

In fact the removal of the back of the hand caused a big difference, but not for the reason you think. The reason for the removal of the back of the hand as target, because there were too many false hits. What was happening was when fencers were making parries, especially 5, their lame on the back of the hand would come in contact with the edge of the guard and because of the anti-fraud circuit, they would register a touch. They were annulling so many obvious false touches, they felt they had to do something.

That is why the back of the hand was removed as target.

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by JAySE SUiCiDE

oh yeah, lets not complain about bad sportsmanship..because why should we be complaining about it, you should just accept it!... </ sarcasm>

That not my point nor what I said... I'll have to remind myself in the future that I don't do sarcasm well in text. Complaining about poor sportsmanship either here or directly to the offenders will do little or nil to change their behavior. My opinion: Best to lead by example and set a standard for one's on behavior, let the unsportsmanlike figure it out on their own.

no, I don't like the masks. Yes, I love flicks (I'm foil and sabre, yeah, new, aint it?), and yes, I love my pistol grip. Shouting to excess can be a tad annoying though at times..and I dont like Adidas, just because I'm anti-big corporations like that . And no, electric scoring is fine by my book. But yes, you attempt at criticism was noticed...

Then we see things similarly, except that without a big corporation like Adidas, we'd either be fencing in Pro Keds or home made mocassins with discarded car treads for soles or paying 4x more than the already expensive Adidas for a purpose-designed custom shoe made by the village cobbler.

hmm..I'm pretty sure the point of the whole mask-test is to fail them then SO YOU DON'T DIE ON THE STRIP. It's not like its a test, where you get a penalty for your mask not passing..yeah, what's your point? So, they fail.

My point was that injuries can occur with any type of mask, which is why we test & inspect them - and that even a tested mask can fail; and that to argue against the windowed masks based on perceived risk or the inabilty at present to qualitatively test them in the field does not make a convincing case for excluding them.

I would be a LOT more afraid with wearing a mask with lexan, because there's no way (that I know of..) to test it, and..hell, its a piece of plastic. c'mon. ...yeah, mesh masks cause injuries.

I don't believe masks of any kind cause injuries, unless you get hit by one flung by and unsportsmanlike fencer.
Lots of things are made of plastic. Just being plastic does not a priori make the mask unsafe. Acrylic is used for bullet proof windows. Its used in racecar windows. A lot of impact absorbing safety gear from helmets to automotive parts and all kinds of sporting goods are made from plastic.

If you think about it..with the lexan masks, there has to be a sort of |_| shape all around as the frame to hold in implace, right? So, basically, there's a piece of metal aiming right at your face, inside of your mask... hmmm, seems safe by me..

sorry...just not following you there - I don't understand. I wear eyeglasses, and they seem more dangerously close to my face with metal bits and potentially sharp stuff than the metal bezel around the mask window.

hmm..me thinks Inq is a lawyer as a side job
~Jes

Indeed - he does like a spirited discussion.

[pkt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

... What was happening was when fencers were making parries, especially 5, their lame on the back of the [sword] hand would come in contact with the edge of the guard and because of the anti-fraud circuit, they would register a touch. They were annulling so many obvious false touches, they felt they had to do something.

That is why the back of the [sword] hand was removed as target.

hmmm, that's why the FIE at one time mandated that the complete inside of the sabre had to be covered.
Then they did something to the circuitry and that's not needed any more in the last two years.

In all these years of fencing electric sabre, the only times my sword-hand lame' make contact with the guard was when i was in tierce... rarely in quinte!

PK

[pkt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

...

In how you can test the visor part of the mask. You can't, only your opponent can fail it.

Donald,

You're a knowledgeablew man: What about using those lights to shine on the lexan visor to show the stress pattern in a rainbow colour... methinks this may show the stress fractures.

i know another piece of maybe expensive equipment for the armourer. But hey they use the lean masks only in big touneys...

PK

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

You're not going to make attacks you wouldn't otherwise make with the new masks.

No---you're going to have to STOP making attacks you otherwise MIGHT make. IOW, your options shrink. However small you might believe the shrinkage to be, it's still shrinkage. And remember the reaction to the notion of adding "small" target areas to foil, such as the mask bib and part of the weapon arm? Small or not, it makes a difference. It changes the way you have to fence. Fencing is a sport of very small margins at times: margins of both time and distance, margins of opportunity. Reducing those margins even farther, in no other interest than the questionable idea that it will somehow increase interest on the part of the public, is not a negligible thing...

"When my opponent attacks, I hit him with the point of the blade DIRECTLY between the eyes, not an inch different in any direction!"

You may mock, but I did just exactly that in a tournament once. Stop thrust right to the center of the mask, then leap back out of distance. Now, what if that one touch were the margin of victory in a crucial bout? Not so insignificant any more.

And you know, I've scored more than a few touches with vertical cuts to precisely that area of the mask. Caught just a wire or two. Now make that part of the mask---the most forward part---nontarget and those will no longer score...

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Stylothek

...
Still, I think anybody who doesn't agree with my points above should get one, It doesn't make a difference in foil or epee fencing anyway.

Primarily an epee fencer, I gotta tell you that having a blind spot right below the eyes is a killer. When I fence the one or two people that wear the masks, at least 2 touches per bout are scored with me putting my point in their blind spot, and scoring (and often scratching) the Lexan.

I think the masks:

• Are ugly in person
• Are unsafe
• Affect vision negatively
• Look great on TV

As for sabre target areas, eh, quit whining.

I've see epee coaches work on toe touches and mask touches.
I've never seen a saber coach work on a thrust to the eyes.

So now saber cuts to the mask need to adjust, it's not that big a deal.

And if epee changed to remove the feet from target, it still wouldn't change the 'essential nature of the game.'

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Artisan

Then we see things similarly, except that without a big corporation like Adidas, we'd either be fencing in Pro Keds or home made mocassins with discarded car treads for soles or paying 4x more than the already expensive Adidas for a purpose-designed custom shoe made by the village cobbler.

Or wearing volleyball shoes.

Oh, wait, we already do that...

[I_luv_saber]

Primarily an epee fencer, I gotta tell you that having a blind spot right below the eyes is a killer. When I fence the one or two people that wear the masks, at least 2 touches per bout are scored with me putting my point in their blind spot, and scoring (and often scratching) the Lexan.

1: Yes, there is a blind spot, but it is fairly samll, and you do get rewarded somewhat by the fact you can see much better.

2: I know at least the Leon Paul clear masks have a cheap replacable "scratch layer" for such an occurence, so the actual plastic rarely gets scratched (though I could see how this may be more of a problem in epee).
Anyways, the masks can't look any worse than the knickers we already have to wear. Personally I like the way they look. And from what I've heard, the good ones are very safe. As far as the lack of target in saber... for one I have rarely seen hits there. I have been hit there twice, and that was by accident. And secondly, people have been trying to find advantages over opponents in ANY sport for years. This is nothing new, and most definitely not unsportsmanlike in any way.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by pkt

Donald,

You're a knowledgeablew man: What about using those lights to shine on the lexan visor to show the stress pattern in a rainbow colour... methinks this may show the stress fractures.

i know another piece of maybe expensive equipment for the armourer. But hey they use the lean masks only in big touneys...

PK

I have one or two at every local tournament. Maybe the lights would show the stress factures, but then what. There is no standards for rejecting the mask, so it still is the only way they would fail is by the opponent. I hope you are not expecting me to create (make up) a rule on the spot. I'll leave that to a certain FIE President.

You don't know expense. If you check the new rules, there is a test for blades using a magnatometer. A light would be cheap.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by achilleus

I've see epee coaches work on toe touches and mask touches.
I've never seen a saber coach work on a thrust to the eyes.

So that means it's never done, right?

So now saber cuts to the mask need to adjust, it's not that big a deal.

Said the epeeist, who knoweth not...

And if epee changed to remove the feet from target, it still wouldn't change the 'essential nature of the game.'

Perhaps we have different definitions of "essential" and "nature".

[ReverseLunge]

I heard that lexan can stop a bullet. Sounds a lot stronger than steel mesh to me.

[DHCJr]

1) Yes if it is thick enough, these are not. Look at the thickness at a bank and then look at the thickness of the mask.

2) The problems has been 2 fold, style that vendors may still be selling, that shatter and the kind that is still legal can shift and fall out because they can no longer lock them in place with screws that go through them.

3) We have a way to know when a mesh is bad. We have none when the lexan is bad.

I've had the chance to fail 2 masks, but both were obvious and I am very careful. One was missing a nut and one had shifted leaving a hole. Neither of the fencers had noticed.