Coaching on the strip

[rustica]

Saw some interesting coaching in Sacramento. One coach would stand behind his student's opponant and signal and show where to hit. I saw it in foil and sabre. What can a fencer do if a coach is behind him/her on the strip? If it is distracting, can the ref be asked to make the coach go away? One fencer I spoke to was really bothered by this behavior and pointed out that the "coach-ee" had done poorly in pools but advanced in DE's because the coach was there. But how can you fence and watch for signals all at the same time? Advice, anybody?

[d8m]

The rules state that coaching is not allowed...

However it is never enforced internationally and the US is following suit. So the bottom line is get used to people coaching.

Unless you get the US ref who sympathizes with you or ignores the current interpretations, there is not much to be done.

The exception to this is that if the ref is distracted by the coach, he will probably be forced to change his behaviour. But hand signals usually don't qualify.

As to the second part of your question...
Everyone's different. Some people are coachable at tournaments, some aren't.

Some people like hand signals, some like being verbally what actions to do, and some like the coach shouting to attack...

A fencer who learns how to listen to his/her coach can really improve her/his game.

Of course, your coach may not always be there to help...

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: d8m ]

[oiuyt]

The rule in question is t.82.

The current interpretation is that people are allowed to give advice from off the strip. There's still the issue of "disturbing order off the strip" which if someone is (in the opinion of the referee, your opinion doesn't count for this) disturbing the running of the competition can get people removed.

The way this is being enforced (in the US at least) is that no one is allowed beyond the endlines (on either side of the strip) except for the two fecners and the referee. Many referees will allow people to come in a couple of steps (usually near the warning line) and some will allow people on the box side of the strip where ever they want to be (especially fencers waiting for their time on the strip), but they're not supposed to. Again, like so many rules things, it all comes down to the discretion of the referee. You push to get what you want until and unless the referee doesn't allow it, at which point you follow whatever the referee has said. Or you risk being carded/removed.

-B

[Stryder]

The coach was probably Mauro Hamza.
He has been doing that for years. And yes, he has a very real effect on his student performance in the DE's.
The ref can and usually will ask him to move if it is too obvious. But only if you ask him to.

When in doubt, speak to the ref'. (In a calm and polite manner, of course.)

You shouldn't walk away from the bout with no idea what the ref' might have said. Only the most assinine of ref's would refuse to explain their decision to some degree. Even if it's as curt as "He is not disturbing order, therefore he is not in volation of any rule."

[Peach]

When a coach is coaching from the end of the strip, sometimes I object. Sometimes I don't.

I tried to think of a way to tell a Sacramento story to explain this, but couldn't figure out how not to get somebody in trouble if I did, even if I didn't name names. Suffice it to say it's typical of fencing that you could have two coaches who are also referees strip-coaching in a national tournament DE where the referee is also a nationally-competitive fencer and one of the fencers is a nationally-rated referee. There was loud strip-coaching, there was arguing (and threats of retaliation) with the referee afterwards, and later on another coach who was also a referee told the complaining coach to lay off because the fencer was his.

I was one of these people, I won't tell you which one <grin>.

There were actually no real conflicts of interest that would have caused a different referee to be assigned.

It's just that fencing relationships and roles are SOOOOOOO complex.

[oiuyt]

Although that does bring up an interesting point.... normally, as the system is designed, refs should feel free to card coaches when they get out of hand. Refs should in theory be unbiased judges of what's happening. But when refs are also competitors (or less directly, coaches) and can have their own (or their students') future bouts threatened....

-B

[Peach]

That's for sure. The incident made me, for one, wonder whether I really want to be a referee while I'm still competitive.

[d8m]

Originally posted by oiuyt:
<STRONG>Although that does bring up an interesting point.... normally, as the system is designed, refs should feel free to card coaches when they get out of hand. Refs should in theory be unbiased judges of what's happening. But when refs are also competitors (or less directly, coaches) and can have their own (or their students') future bouts threatened....

-B </STRONG>

All refs are former fencers...

Many are coaches...

And since fencing is such a small community, every single ref has ties to fencers out there. It's old news.

For example, take Derek Cotton.
He is friends with so many fencers.
Has coached in SF and LA.
And fenced for numerous clubs.
He has many ties.

It's the same on a worldwide scale.

Until the organizations find ways to keep the pool of officials separate from the competitors, there will always be ties.
It has always been this way.

[Peach]

Actually, a number of refs I know are not former fencers--they are parents of fencers, which raises other issues &lt;grin&gt;.

Speaking, of course, as a parent of a fencer.

[attila]

Hi

I seem to recall some word going out last fall about it being OK to coach on the side lines as long as you did not interfere with the bout. I have and will cotinue to coach off the back of the strip. It is MY JOB to do so. I know for sure I made a difference in my students' performance in the DE's. I'm glad to say I am not nearly as obnoxious as many out there. If it is done then have YOUR coach give you a hand in your DE. I wish I had a coach to give me some input when I fence......

[Inquartata]

When I fence, my attention narrows down to the bout. I don't see much else than my opponent, I don't hear cheering, I wouldn't hear coaching, I barely hear the box sometimes. If I COULD hear anything from off-strip, I suspect it'd be more of an annoying distraction than a help, and I prefer to win or lose on my own merits anyway, without dubious "assistance" from bystanders. I am perfectly willing to let my opponent's coach distract HIM, though, so I have no problem with the practice. ( I do feel sorry for fencers whose coaches scold and rage at them from the sidelines, though. )

[gesk]

Have to agree with Inquartata comment there. I once saw a coach yell at his (I think) 16 yr old student till the kid cried.

[sabreur]

I certainly have been known to offer suggestions to team mates from the side of the strip. And I certainly find it useful when I am in a mental do-loop, to have someone offer a suggestion or two that might break the pattern.

On the other hand, obnoxious coaching or support is, well, obnoxious.

The best answer I've ever seen was at a German Junior National Championship in epee a couple of years ago. It was the final in one of the age categories, and one fencer's coach was sitting on the sidelines, making a huge racket.... The other kid lifted his mask, looked at the referee, pointed to the coach, put his finger to his lips, and lowered his mask again. And went on to win by about five touches. The opposing coach was embarrassed into semi-silence at least.


Bottom line: if it is bothering you, let the referee know--he should do something about it.

Regards, MR

[Zelda]

Well I must admit I do like knowing my coach is nearby when I am fencing, especially at national comps. I will admit in my 2nd last DE last weekend I noticed out of the corner of my eye the other coach standing behind her fencer telling her to "ATTACK" I kept hearing it and every time she said it I did it. It confused the **** out of my opponent. I only ever heard my coach when I got a point and he let out a "THATS IT!!! GOOD GIRL!" I only partially listened to him during the breaks, but I was sub consiouslly aware of my team mates cheering for me. Personally with refing from the side I'm ambililant, sometimes it motivates me as I think "They need to be told what to do... I dont!" But thats just me!

[big poppa]

Good Girl Zelda! I love those fencers that can't seem to fence well unless the Coach/parent is there telling them every move. I uesd ro play this game : when the other guy is being coached, I think what would I tell him at this point and then I would do that to him.or like Zelda do to him what his coach is telling him. the bottom line is the coach can telll a fencer what to do all day the problem is can the fencer do it while an opponent is beating the snot out of his favorite head, most can't. The mentally tough are the most dangerous in any sport (see Venus Williams)

[sallearmourer]

I was cheering on my daughter at the Jo one year while she was fencing epee. She was down in her epee bout and was makeing a come back. So after every touch I would cheer louding . But as soon as they came engrade I was very quiet. The other fencer father came over and told me to be quiet. I look at him and laugh and kept on cheering. He started to raise such a fuss that his daughter step back and with the refree permission took her mask and told her father to shut up as he was disturb order on the strip. He got so upset with me for cheering my daughter he actual complain to the BC about my action the BC had all ready heard about his action that they almost Black Carded him.

[Peach]

I would have liked to be there!

I once had a situation with mother cheering from stripside, but unlike you she was cheering loudly during the action and was right next to me practically shouting in my ear, and actually coaching her daughter (not well). I said to the referee at one point, "I find this a little distracting," and he shrugged. After I beat her daughter, the woman snapped at me, "You find it a lit-tle dis-trac-ting!" in the NASTIEST tone!

I shook hands with her daughter, gave her some suggestions for how to beat me the next time, and she became a friend.

Oddly enough, the mother became a friend later too. I sometimes forget what it's like to be a relatively new parent at these things, especially since my daughter won't let me near the strip when she's fencing!

Gee . . . I wonder why that is . . . &lt;grin&gt;

--Delia

[rustica]

I would expect a coach to be at the sides of the strip, offering advice and encouragment. These coaches in Sacramento were showing where to hit!! One was from Sacramento (not Ted) and the other was from Oklahoma, I think. I too am a fencing parent (although my mate fences as well) and I cheer for my kid. As for our local coach, he can't be everywhere at once. The coaching takes place during lessons. Either they're ready to compete or they aren't. He seldom says anything on the strip.

[scarlet_woman156k]

I personally don't mind if a coach is giving advice during a bout to my opponent. It depends on HOW the coach is giving advice. I've experienced some really annoying coaches, and have actually just stood there, looking at the ref and pointing to the coach. The ref usually agrees and asks the coach to stay quiet.

Then, sometimes, the coach isn't too annoying, and actually works to MY advantage. I have always found it funny when they are saying stuff I can hear, I then know exactly what the opponent is going to do. I think it can definitely backfire if the coach doesn't coach properly.

The best coaching I've seen is when the coach gives hand signals behind the opponent. It is the least distracting to the opponent (they often don't realize it's even occuring).

However, my personal preference is "restricted" coaching. I like words of encouragement during the bout (but having to divert your attention to the coach because of something he/she is saying regarding the bout seems like a BIG break in focus...at least for me), and actual coaching during rest periods.

All-in-all coaching and "obnoxious cheering" are just tactics to try and break the confidence and concentration of the opponent. Don't fall into it. It's all about mental toughness.

[Cutter]

Rustica, I am a Sacramento fencer and know which coach you are referring to. I for one hate it when he does that as it becomes very distracting to have someone behind your opponent and still in your line of sight doing hand signals at you. I am going to have to ask that he not be on my strip anymore, but thankfully, I don't think that is going to be a problem because he and I have had a tiff and he is "no longer training me."