Some recent UK fencing club tests using the new foil/sabre timings.

[achilleus]

This may give rise to the French grip in foil.

Imagine, a 6'6" long skinny lefty who posts. If, as EDEW suggests we'll see the return of heavier bladework.

And the attack will be, long deep lunge, with remise and ducking, so as to make it harder for the riposter to land their point in time...

Awesome...

[edew]

I don't know if the french grip will return, but the attack plus duck with remise is precisely the type of fencing we would like to not see.

On the other hand, Vezzali seems to be a big proponent of tactics similar to that: remises or counter-attacks with displacement of target.

What I see might go the way of the do-do is the second-intention. Step in, draw the attack, parry riposte. A very classic foil action. Now, it'll be hard to do: the riposte has to be lightning quick to the chest (no flicks to flanks or back), and has to beat the immediate remise. Parries will have to be done from long distance to make sure that any remises will fall short or slow down after reaching the full extension, so that the riposte will have a chance of setting off the light.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by edew

I don't know if the french grip will return, but the attack plus duck with remise is precisely the type of fencing we would like to not see.

Who's we?

As for the french grip, I don't think it will, but...

If the game turns to pris de fer's and other heavy blade actions, with a short lock-out time, I could see this happening:

The new timings make defense with absence of blade, relying on stop hits, counter attacks, and running away is much stronger. So, a french coach will take his tall, athletic, lanky fencer, teach him these actions with a french. The opponents, will rely on blade actions which will allow the french grip fencer to evade the blade, and allow him more time to take advantage of the counter attack...

Sounds crazy, I know....

Originally Posted by edew

What I see might go the way of the do-do is the second-intention. Step in, draw the attack, parry riposte. A very classic foil action. Now, it'll be hard to do: the riposte has to be lightning quick to the chest (no flicks to flanks or back), and has to beat the immediate remise. Parries will have to be done from long distance to make sure that any remises will fall short or slow down after reaching the full extension, so that the riposte will have a chance of setting off the light.

Distance is going to be very different, and the attacks will also be very different.

How will the light parries be affected? Let's say A makes attack, is parried but continues without being deflected much and the remise is an immediate, unbroken continuation of the initial attack? That was a bad habit that many beginning fencers had to learn to avoid. Being stiff in the arm, and not feeling the parry. Now, that action is rewarded...

[neevel]

Originally Posted by Katman

I do marching attacks and I've never really finished one with a flick. Fast-ish marches in absence and slow marches with my blade before me and vice versa. The priority of the correct action should be the winner in these instances, not the counterattacker.

It would be a bummer if the new timings eliminated this as an option. Aw well. I will adapt.

Marches like that will still work. The finish there is much more susceptible to a parry and riposte, though.

-Dave

[keith]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Let's say A makes attack, is parried but continues without being deflected much and the remise is an immediate, unbroken continuation of the initial attack? That was a bad habit that many beginning fencers had to learn to avoid. Being stiff in the arm, and not feeling the parry. Now, that action is rewarded...

these are the actions that are likely to become epeeish.

straight arm ignoring the beat, envelope, ceded parry, oppostion riposte.

[vincikai]

lets all only fence epee then

[mike morgan]

Originally Posted by keith

these are the actions that are likely to become epeeish.

straight arm ignoring the beat, envelope, ceded parry, oppostion riposte.

We are also testing the new timings. Preliminary (I stress preliminary) results in foil suggest: coupes; both internal and external flanconades, and coup-lances all regularly register. Yielding parries are proving to be very, very effective, as are opposition parries with continuing oppositional repostes. Friossments with immediate, direct actions also will usually register before the remise. (But your distance must be absolutely correct!!) Compound or indirect repostes slowly delivered will not usually score before the remise. More to follow.....

[keith]

Originally Posted by mike morgan

We are also testing the new timings. In foil coupes, flaconades and coup lances all regularly register. Yielding parries are very, very effective, as our opposition parrys with imediate repostes. Friossments with immediate, direct actions also will usually register before the remise, (But your distance must be absolutely correct!!) Compound or indirect repostes slowly delivered will not usually score before the remise.

the more I hear the less worried I am getting - these are all classic foil actions; just ones most foilist don't bother with anymore. Perhaps one of the more interesting side effects will be the elimination of benefit of the doubt presiding;

fencer A is a junior olympian and couldn't possibly have been hit in time by a stop hit in preparation.

[keith]

Originally Posted by vincikai

lets all only fence epee then

well its not pure epee, just a phrasing that might be coached to an epeeist but one you would be less likely to be taught (or use) under current foil timings.

... the rules do say that the riposte should be immediate, an end to lazy breaking of time - why disengage when you can just wait - may be a good thing.

[mrbiggs]

Thanks, Edew, for answering my question.

I think that it's unfair to judge these timings completely until they have been in effect for several years. I think that the remise propblem may be solved by saberesque remises. Rather than the usual foil tempo- parry, disengage or whatever, repost, it'll be more like sabre tends towards- parryRIPOSTE. It's gonna be harder to do with a point weapon, though. I'm sure SOMEONE will figre out how to deal with double attackers.

I think it's sad if they really removed the (back) flick. I'm not mad, I just think it's sad. It's like in video games. Would you play video games if there wasn't some secret move or weapon to work towards? Well, a consistantly well-executed flick filled that void in foil, and now it's probably gone.

Of course, the new regulations may in ten years be herealded as a genius move by the FIE, one that revolutionized foil, and lured thousands more to the sport. But I doubt it.

Oh, yeah, one more thing. When will these timings become normal in low-level U.S. competitions? Do you think that some tournaments at lower levels will continue to use the old times because they don't want to spend a few thousand to upgrade all their boxes or buy new ones?
This whole thing is kinda exciting, though.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by Epeecurean

Hi Gav,

I guessing B's riposte was delayed or compound, or maybe he just plain missed? If it were direct or indirect, and on target, I have a hard time seeing it taking more than 300ms to execute after the remise landed.

I seriously doubt this will be the 'death' of foil. After all, even the foilist who made this remark seems determined to adapt to the situation and won't be giving it up. & who knows, retention rates may be higher with the reduced importance of the flick and hopefully an improvement in foil refereeing.

Nor do I think that this will cause foil to lose its essential character and become 'epee-light'. The foil blockage time has been cut from 750ms to 300ms -- this is still 6-7 times longer than the epee blockage time of 40-50ms. Right of way will still predominant over who-hits-first.

After reading your post I did a bit of thinking and considered that I might have got my facts wrong so I asked the Foilist in question last night. He reaffirmed what I was saying. So perhaps the other guy was delaying his riposte [which seems suicidal at the moment let alone when the new timings come into force]. Both fencers are highly ranked in the UK so are decent by our standards. For the purposes of the trial they were more than competent. The real point I as trying to make was that this was a situatuion where the application of the rules has become secondary to the application of the electronics. We discussed various options and one to the things he did mention was that he thought that if someone was going to parry then it would have to be "Epee-style" i.e. with blade contact throughout. We're probably going to see a lot tighter blade work and less "waving the blade around" as well. He thought these were the god side of the changes. He also agree's with me that the problem was never with the Fencers as such, rather it's the poor average standard of reffing that has led to Foil being the way it is. Local variations or interpretations don't make it easy for fencers or ref's alike [at the moment]. As he pointed out, "if the average UK ref interpreted the rules like the French do then there wouldn't be these changes." And he extended that idea to the rest of the world too,

By the way Fencer A (The Foilist we are talking about) thrashed the other guy and is about half his height.

Since I first spoke to him I've discovered that the Foilists at EFC practice, on and off, with the new timings [approximately once a week]. So the fact that this Foilist has stuck to his opinion makes me believe him.

He also said, "Watch the first season that these come into forcce I'm willing to bet there are some upsets." He's going to speak to his mates down south when he's down at the Essex Open this week - with a bit of luck I'll have something to type up for the guys on both boards pretty soon.

[Epeecurean]

Originally Posted by Gav

So perhaps the other guy was delaying his riposte [which seems suicidal at the moment let alone when the new timings come into force].

Originally Posted by Gav

We're probably going to see a lot tighter blade work and less "waving the blade around" as well. He thought these were the god side of the changes.

I think it probably was the case that his ripostes were delayed. But I'm betting that after getting thrashed a few more times this way he will learn to make immediate ripostes. 300ms should be plenty of time for a riposte. Heck, I can (& I'm sure you can too) do a beat-parry riposte in epee which results in a single-light, & there the lock-out time is much shorter.

I also think tighter blade work will result in cleaner and clearer fencing.

Originally Posted by Gav

The real point I as trying to make was that this was a situatuion where the application of the rules has become secondary to the application of the electronics.

I see it more as using the electronics to define the maximum length of 'one fencing tempo' to make the application of the rules easier and improve the fencing. This works both ways, too. If the stop-hit or remise is "in time" it should result in one light. Likewise, if there are two lights, it is highly likely that the stop-hit was not "in time", i.e. before the final attacking action.

It may be that it has been defined too tightly, as edew says, but I don't think so -- people just need to get used to it. Note that the 300ms time is actually a compromise/adjustment from the original proposal of 200ms or 250ms, I believe. We'll just have to wait to see how it works in practice this season.

[Gav]

think it probably was the case that his ripostes were delayed. But I'm betting that after getting thrashed a few more times this way he will learn to make immediate ripostes. 300ms should be plenty of time for a riposte. Heck, I can (& I'm sure you can too) do a beat-parry riposte in epee which results in a single-light, & there the lock-out time is much shorter.

I also think tighter blade work will result in cleaner and clearer fencing.

Which is why I noted that it struck me as being suicidal.

As for all the other stuff we'll just have to wait and see.

[veeco]

Also, one should keep in mind that if the attacker who's been parried remises immediatly, that should probably tell you that a compound riposte is not the right option to choose from.

A compound riposte is something that should be used when the person who's been parried is retreating and not presenting an immediate threat with a remise, setting themselves up for a counterparry-riposte sequence. You'd do the compound riposte when you want to evade the counterparry. So in a sense, these shorter lockout times actually promote more sensible fencing, because they eliminate the option of doing a compound riposte when you shouldn't do one.

So basically, it is still possible to do compound ripostes and have them score when it is meaningful to do so. If it's not, then you get scored on if you make the wrong decision. Seems pretty normal to me.

[Rolls]

Originally Posted by veeco

Also, one should keep in mind that if the attacker who's been parried remises immediatly, that should probably tell you that a compound riposte is not the right option to choose from.

A compound riposte is something that should be used when the person who's been parried is retreating and not presenting an immediate threat with a remise, setting themselves up for a counterparry-riposte sequence. You'd do the compound riposte when you want to evade the counterparry. So in a sense, these shorter lockout times actually promote more sensible fencing, because they eliminate the option of doing a compound riposte when you shouldn't do one.

So basically, it is still possible to do compound ripostes and have them score when it is meaningful to do so. If it's not, then you get scored on if you make the wrong decision. Seems pretty normal to me.

THANK YOU! As I was reading the opinions and predicitons, it struck me as odd that everyone was completely throwing out the tactical wheel. A delayed riposte failing to an immediate remise... YES, that's the way it's supposed to work even now. A compound action can only work if the defender responds. So, will the delayed riposte go away? No, a good fencer will just have to progress to that point as always. I.e. score a couple points with a direct riposte. Then, your opponent will start parrying real fast, and you can make as compound an action as you like.

Destroy foil? No, it may change the way it's fenced, but that's kinda the point isn't it. I can see it now, a new breed of "classical" fencers who swear that days where better way back when. "Why, in my day, you could wrap the weapon clean around your opponent and score a touch to the back." Change happens.

Epee light? Well, sure with RoW, limited target area, smaller bells, different blades, no double touches, and oh well you get the picture.

Rolls.

[cfaustus]

Originally Posted by Rolls

THANK YOU! As I was reading the opinions and predicitons, it struck me as odd that everyone was completely throwing out the tactical wheel. A delayed riposte failing to an immediate remise... YES, that's the way it's supposed to work even now. A compound action can only work if the defender responds. So, will the delayed riposte go away? No, a good fencer will just have to progress to that point as always. I.e. score a couple points with a direct riposte. Then, your opponent will start parrying real fast, and you can make as compound an action as you like.

Destroy foil? No, it may change the way it's fenced, but that's kinda the point isn't it. I can see it now, a new breed of "classical" fencers who swear that days where better way back when. "Why, in my day, you could wrap the weapon clean around your opponent and score a touch to the back." Change happens.

Epee light? Well, sure with RoW, limited target area, smaller bells, different blades, no double touches, and oh well you get the picture.

Rolls.

Wow! You guys are right on!

[Jarentz]

Originally Posted by Rolls

Destroy foil? No, it may change the way it's fenced, but that's kinda the point isn't it. I can see it now, a new breed of "classical" fencers who swear that days where better way back when. "Why, in my day, you could wrap the weapon clean around your opponent and score a touch to the back." Change happens.

I can see it now... "neo-classical" fencing! :-)

[sabreman]

Is there still a block out (neither side can score) for sabre after blade contact to detect parry or whip over? If so what is the timing?

[edew]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Who's we?

As for the french grip, I don't think it will, but...

If the game turns to pris de fer's and other heavy blade actions, with a short lock-out time, I could see this happening:

The new timings make defense with absence of blade, relying on stop hits, counter attacks, and running away is much stronger. So, a french coach will take his tall, athletic, lanky fencer, teach him these actions with a french. The opponents, will rely on blade actions which will allow the french grip fencer to evade the blade, and allow him more time to take advantage of the counter attack...

Sounds crazy, I know....

Doesn't sound crazy at all. It's called epee. Fence epee if you want, but leave foil to foilists. WE (foilist) want to have parry-riposte count.

[edew]

Originally Posted by veeco

Also, one should keep in mind that if the attacker who's been parried remises immediatly, that should probably tell you that a compound riposte is not the right option to choose from.

A compound riposte is something that should be used when the person who's been parried is retreating and not presenting an immediate threat with a remise, setting themselves up for a counterparry-riposte sequence. You'd do the compound riposte when you want to evade the counterparry. So in a sense, these shorter lockout times actually promote more sensible fencing, because they eliminate the option of doing a compound riposte when you shouldn't do one.

So basically, it is still possible to do compound ripostes and have them score when it is meaningful to do so. If it's not, then you get scored on if you make the wrong decision. Seems pretty normal to me.

Three things:

1. Fencers will work towards making their target hard to find (more leaning over, more hiding behind the weapon arm, more leaning the chest onto the front leg). A slow, deliberate, clear riposte to a hard-to-find spot should and must count against a fast remise by those who try to hide target such as described above. These ripostes do not use compound actions, just a normal speed to reach a particular hard to hit (and equally hard to protect) location.

2. I can, already, make attack-remise hit with one light about 30% of the time. With the shorter lockout time, I can probably make that go to 70% or higher. So what's the point of even attempting to parry? Just make a decent short attack, continue with a remise and f-you to RoW.

3. Since this is almost going the way of epee, let's realize that there's an inherent equality in epee, regardless of the physical stature of the fencer: your tip is just as far as your opponent's tip is to each other's hand, approximately 1m. In foil, because the target is the chest, the taller fencer will definitely get the advantage. The distance to the target in foil is foil blade the arm length. An extremely long-armed fencer can take advantage by making attack remises, independent of whether the opponent makes beat parries, bind parries, or whatever. Just slip the blade off the parry and remise away.

My main point is that the shorter lockout timing will bring about more remises instead of clearer swordplay. I don't think fencing wants to see two people making incessant remises. I rather see the back-and-forth of parry ripostes with compound ripostes