Duel in the Desert

[sabreuse]

About how many sabre fencers are planning on going to the Duel in the Desert tournament. I'd like to go because it sounds like fun but I'm trying to justify the travel expense to myself. See, if I tell myself that it'll be really big and really cool then somehow I don't feel so bad about spending the money.

Anyone?

[Rapier9mm]

Well, its news to me, but here in Auckland we have the annual Whiskey Sabre tournament comming up (I think) which involves the Sabreurs getting drunk & fighting for 24 hours, its a handicapped tournament as you could guess...

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Reuben
"Le singe violet laveur de vaiselle"

[Cutter]

I am planning to go and compete in Women's saber.

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Cutter
Reach out and "touch" someone.

[Stryder]

The Duel in the Desert is a great tournament.
If you can, you should go!

Last year the winner in Mens Epee got $1000.00 in casino token!(which means silver dollars)
The finals wee a weird best of seven 5 touch bouts, strange, but very dramatic.
I give it two thumbs up.

[edew]

As an unofficial advocate for the Duel In The Desert, I have to say, "DEFINITELY ATTEND."

This year it will be held at the Tropicana Hotel, which is a step up from last year's Palace Station (and that was a step up from the year before's Fremont Hotel).

The events are all very well staged. They're run as professionally as you can expect (and more). The finals are always the best part, so if you don't expect to be fencing for the gold, bring a nice suit or dress with your for the showcase. (It's Vegas, so you may dress as flashily as you want.)

This year no longer have mixed events. The men's and women's have their own events (as the numbers are sufficiently large in both cases to warrant that...as well as the fact that we can now use the women fencers to help referee the men's events and conversely).

The following events are guaranteed cash prizes:

Men's Epee: $1000 to winner
Men's Sabre: $500 to winner
Women's Foil: $500 to winner
Women's Epee: $500 to winner

Men's Foil will have to earn it's $1000 (by getting the requisite 12 A's, 12 B's, 12 C's, and enough finishing in the top 8 or 12). Women's Sabre can earn it's $1000 as well by fielding a similar group. That's unlikely, though. But, someone might come up and offer a cash prize for the women's sabre event. Maybe the casino!?!

As for spending the money, don't worry about your initial cost, because once you're here, you and your money will soon be parted. One thing to know about Vegas, if you're not familiar with the town: bring lots of CASH, and expect to pay here and there (tips here, tips there, doodad here, doodad there).

Entertainment (of the non-gaming kind) is not cheap. A ticket for "O" the cirque du soleil show at the Bellagio will set you back $90-100. A Penn and Teller show will set you back as much.

However, you can still play roulette for $0.50 a chip at most casinos. Most blackjack tables aren't going to have anything less than $5-10 tables. That is, if you care about such things. Don't ask me about other "services" available at Vegas.

[sabreuse]

Edew,

As it turns out, I just got a really good deal on airfare so I'm definitely planning to go. I'm sure I can find a sweatsuit with gold trim so I won't feel out of place.

You said you won't have mixed events. Does that mean I can't fence in the men's sabre if I want to?

[edew]

That is my understanding. I know for sure that the epee and foil will be sex separated (because hey, suppose Felicia Z or Ann Marsh decided to come and win both the "men's" and "women's" foil (or epee or whatever); won't be fair that the guys can't take a shot at the women's prizes, right?)

Evan Ranes, organizer of the DITD sent me this notice:

Fencers

The deadline to reserve a room at the Tropicana Hotel & Casino is December 8, 2000. Rates are $75 per night if booked prior to the cutoff date. After December 8, rates will increase to $155 per night.

To reserve a room call 1-800-634-4000 and mention Duel In The Desert.

Evan
********************************************

The rates are $45 for weeknights and $75 for weekend nights, so it's a great deal compared to many other tournaments.

[azfencer]

They really won't let women fence in the men's events?!?!? That would be too bad. The women's events in foil and epee were reasonably strong last year, around 30 fencers in each, but the competition quality wasn't nearly the same as the open. The women's sabre was very weak, maybe a dozen women and all but 2 or 3 were U's. I would be upset if I fenced sabre and couldn't fence in the open. As it is, I'll be much less likely to go if I can't fence open foil.
(Besides isn't that discrimination if I am only eligible to fence for a $500 prize and a man could win $1000???)

[edew]

It isn't discrimination because men's foil do not have a guarantee of $1000. I personally don't think it will get the requisite numbers to make the $1000. The women's foil IS guaranteed $500, as is women's epee and men's sabre (all for $500). It gets bumped up to $1000 if the requisite number of rated fencers show up.

So what do you prefer, guaranteed $500 or a possible $1000?

[azfencer]

Personally I'm not in danger of winning either, if I make the final eight it'll be a good finish for me. I just don't like being excluded. I hate the divisions which don't allow women to fence in the men's events. I wouldn't have cared as a beginner but most women seem to quit before they get "good" and women's events rarely have more than a few experienced fencers (NACs excepted of course). It just isn't fun to beat up on beginners.

Without allowing women to compete in the men's foil I think you are definitely right about it not being an A8 tournament. With the women and the growing reputation after such a great year last year it might have had a chance. It'll still be a good field, just probably short a few A's and a few people total.

[d8m2k]

I really dislike women complaining about wanting fence in a men's event. As a man I am not eligible to fence a women's event, so why should women fence a men's event? So many women (that I personally know) feel that other women fencer's are beneath them. Yet a lot of these women aren't that great. In addition women's fencing and men's fencing are almost different sports. This is not to say one is better than the other, just different. I understand people want more practice, but we are talking about a competition here.

[sabreuse]

I'm not saying I want to fence in the mens event instead of the womens event. I want to do both. For what it's worth, I wouldn't expect to be in contention for prize money in the Mens Sabre competition. I just an E rated woman fencer. Men and women DO fence differently. I wanted to fence in the men's tournament because I thought it would be fun. Besides, if I'm already going to spend $220 for airfare and $75 a night for a hotel and $50 for event fees, I might as well spend another $25 to get to fence some more.

Looking at the schedule I guess I could fence women's foil on Saturday...now THAT would be funny. I sometimes fence foil in local tournaments to help get the numbers up. Lots of flat hits. I also sort of automatically want to do a parry five with a riposte to the head. I once went through an entire pool of 6 and scored only one touch!

And, Hey! Aren't the veterans events going to be mixed???? Hmmm????

[edew]

Maybe having (or not having) mixed events should be a separate thread (which I'll let someone else start). In the Bay Area, our Bay Cup is mostly sex-separated. Especially in the less "experienced" categories. We felt, and this was voiced to me from more women than men, that beginning to intermediate male fencers are not very good with the point control and footwork (and I know exactly what they mean), and so they often come crashing into their opponent. Well, if that opponent is a newbie female fencer, you've basically lost that female fencer to fencing forever.

On another point, we want to build up women's fencing. And we felt that women's fencing has a better chance to grow if it is left to itself.

Remember (if there are any here who do) that up until the mid to late 80's, almost all local events were sex separated. It was in the mid 80s when mixed events began. And frankly, it hasn't really benefitted women's fencing all that well. I think it rather hurt women's fencing because women's fencing now can almost not stand on its own legs.

[Cutter]

Edew, you said it. I am female. I don't want to fence against the guys at tournaments, they don't fence right. Especially the newer ones. I only end up bruised afterward (I do against some women too but that is a different story.) The way men and women fence is entirely different. I want to see women's events to out number the men's but if we keep throwing new girls in with the boys and they get beat on, they won't come back. Much better to train the way your body moves best. Guys, agression and speed. Girls with control and stragedy.
This is not to say we should never fence against each other, only that in a tournament environment "keep 'em separated."

Also, I agree with the reverse discrimination aspect as well. We would never allow for a guy to fence a woman's tourny. Why should the girls be fencing in the men's.

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Cutter
Reach out and "touch" someone.

[This message has been edited by Cutter (edited 11-30-2000).]

[azfencer]

Guess I have to concede that I'm in the minority here. Admittedly if I lived elsewhere in the country I might have different feelings. Here it is either fence total beginners or fence men, I prefer to fence and that means fence men. I liked a couple of tournaments I traveled to last year that allowed women to fence in the men's but only if they were also fencing women's so no one could neglect the women's events. I would have quit long ago if I only got to fence in tiny five-women competitions, I can only wish we had enough women fencing that I could agree with you all.

Please don't tell me about how they did it in the early 80's though, it wasn't that long ago that women weren't allowed to even fence epee or sabre! History isn't always a great reason for having things a certain way.

[oiuyt]

Here as in many locations events are designed to be seperate but get mixed if too few people show up of either gender (granted when this happens it's nearly always too few women). One thing that was tried this past weekend was running an optional second tableau for the women after the mixed tableau using the results from the mixed pools to seed the women's tableau for those interested in additional fencing.

I'm not sure how the foil went, it was over when I got there, but this was well received in epee with 5 of the 8 women participating. It wasn't tried in sabre this time. It seems likely now that this format may be run at other opens this year sort of as a trial thing with a view towrds possibly making it standard in the future.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

[d8m2k]

AZfencer,
I understand your dilemma. I just disagree as to your solution. Also understand, as a guy who trains hard, I have a different point of view. At practice a short while ago, a woman kept wanting to fence me. I kept avoiding her, but finally she caught me. She was a beginner (relatively), and I took it easy on her. However, she repeatedly ran into my extended arm. The next day at a tournament, she talked behind my back about how I bruised and hurt her. I took it easy on her because it was practice, and she threw herself forward. At a tournament, where my goal is to win, I don't know if I would have gone easy. I don't want to hurt anybody, but my goal is to win. Perhaps you could look to improve the women in your area.

[edew]

Az, well, I agree that until the early 90s, women were restricted to essentially foil. That is a clear form of discrimination.

You are an experienced fencer, I take it, and so competing against complete newbies (of the female persuasion) may be close to boring to you (although, I should mention that once in a while, one should fence in a tournament where one completely outclasses the competition: it's nice to finish top-8 in a tough tournament, but one need to experience winning every once in a while or one will lose one's winning edge).

I'm also not advocating the "separate but equal" form of discrimination. All I'm seeing is that a VAST majority of female fencers leave because they get upset at mixed tournaments, being bruised and battered by not-too-competent male fencers. They leave and we lose our potential women fencers.

We need an avenue to keep them in the sport. Once they get good like you, they'll stay in the sport. And when there are enough women, you can still fence against women AND get your competitive experience as well.

As Cutter said, I would love to see more women in the sport. There's no reason not to see 50-50 parity in the numbers. I think our Bay Area junior program is doing an excellent job and we have sex separated events for junior and Y-14 events. Only Y12 (in foil and sabre) and Y10 events (in foil) are mixed.

[azfencer]

Sorry to bring back an old thread but I thought some of you might want to know that women can now fence in the men's events at Duel in the Desert as long as they also fence in the women's event. My understanding is that Evan Ranes got some feedback from women at the Ontario NAC about how little liked the exclusion was and how it wasn't communicated very clearly this year. There's an update on the website which also shows they have money prizes for all events!

[sabreuse]

Thanks, AZFencer. Now there's an additional $25 going from me to the Souther Nevada Fencing Center. I had already made my plane reservations when I found out I couldn't fence in the men's event and was bummed about wasting an additional night in a hotel.