Sanzo's straight attack

[Grasshopper]

Any comments on Sanzo's straight attack? I think it is good because he starts very slowly with a smooth march (blade out of the way) and finishes very hard and fast to the chest.

Another point is that he does not over-extend on his lunge - able to catch himself firmly on his front leg - in case the attack is parried.

Come to think of it, I see both him and Cassara scoring a lot on remises after their attack.

Any thoughts?

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Any comments on Sanzo's straight attack? I think it is good because he starts very slowly with a smooth march (blade out of the way) and finishes very hard and fast to the chest.

Another point is that he does not over-extend on his lunge - able to catch himself firmly on his front leg - in case the attack is parried.

Come to think of it, I see both him and Cassara scoring a lot on remises after their attack.

I'll want to review my videos of the Italians, but I like your description.

I think that one ramification of playing their sort of timing game is that you never want to be stretched out or fully extended -- a long lunge sort of locks you into position. So their lunges are short, they get their speed and tempo-changes from the footwork before the lunge. Another thing I've noticed is that their en garde position is not low; they approach opponents in a walky fashion, chest upright, with the hand raised high -- the lunge emerges more as a big step-forward and with almost no *pop* from the back foot.

When they surprise their opponents, they don't surprise with the delivery of the attack, they surprise with the preparation of the attack. They're fine finishing with a simple lunge, but what makes the lunges hit are the hand-movements and body english before the lunge. This leaves them with a weak lunge comparative to opponents, especially in the situations where they have to lunge predictably -- I recall Joppich was able to out-accellerate in the 2003 world champs on some end-of-strip doubling-out actions.

When those short, walky lunges fail, the Italians are already very upright, with hands high -- easy for them to bring the point around and hit from close distance. The lunges have no 'failure safety,' e.g., they can't really recover back, so they jump in, squat, twist, and fall over.

I think it's reasonable for the Italians to remise heavily after their attacks, it comes with their style. The marches, the tempo, the all-or-nothing short lunges -- they're all built to deliver a one-light attack, and they're good at it. When the attack happens to fail, the opponents are not very put-together anymore -- they're either fleeing backwards, or they've just finished a huge sweeping emergency parry. A remise/reprise is a natural follow-up.

I think of remises as a reflex or an emergency antitode. But the Italians may have trained remises into the game, as a 1-2 punch. If the first one doesn't put you out, let me jump inside your tip and hit you again.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

I think of remises as a reflex or an emergency antitode. But the Italians may have trained remises into the game, as a 1-2 punch. If the first one doesn't put you out, let me jump inside your tip and hit you again.

thats something i saw quite a bit of from joppich actually, in the 2003 final. his attacks into prep and remises won him the bout against the slower marching attacks.

[The0ne]

I don't like Sanzo's straight attack very much. It's kind of not in control. . . Wflaschka, is right, the reason the attack works is the preperation he makes for the attack. In the 2003 WC's video Sanzo stays on the chinese fencer's blade a lot, so they got used to the repetitive preperation, making his attack very suprising. . . Vanni's attack is much more appealing in my opinion.

[keith]

one aspect of the short lunge is the combination of hand and foot - the hand comes from tierce exactly with the leg movement of the short lunge. It does look ungainly (like a jab) compared to a more classical french action but the speed and angulation of the attack make it very hard to parry. The real trick is the management of distance. A longer lunge makes the attack in preparation more dangerous the short action helps limit this danger as there is less chance of the oponent getting 'inside' your point. so a short lunge attack is coupled with agressive footwork that drives the oponent before you.

[The0ne]

which also opens you up to a "hit and away" sort of distance counter-attack, such as Dong killed him on in the finals of China vs. Italy men's foil team.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

I'll want to review my videos of the Italians, but I like your description.

I think that one ramification of playing their sort of timing game is that you never want to be stretched out or fully extended -- a long lunge sort of locks you into position. So their lunges are short, they get their speed and tempo-changes from the footwork before the lunge. Another thing I've noticed is that their en garde position is not low; they approach opponents in a walky fashion, chest upright, with the hand raised high -- the lunge emerges more as a big step-forward and with almost no *pop* from the back foot.

When they surprise their opponents, they don't surprise with the delivery of the attack, they surprise with the preparation of the attack. They're fine finishing with a simple lunge, but what makes the lunges hit are the hand-movements and body english before the lunge. This leaves them with a weak lunge comparative to opponents, especially in the situations where they have to lunge predictably -- I recall Joppich was able to out-accellerate in the 2003 world champs on some end-of-strip doubling-out actions.

When those short, walky lunges fail, the Italians are already very upright, with hands high -- easy for them to bring the point around and hit from close distance. The lunges have no 'failure safety,' e.g., they can't really recover back, so they jump in, squat, twist, and fall over.

Interesting...I would like to add that the above attack is very difficult to parry. Remember Zennaro's bout with Goloubitski in the 2000 WC? G got maybe one of his 15 hits with parry riposte. Once Zennaro got some steps forward and G had taken a few steps back, it was nearly impossible for G to stop the final lunge by parry - he was smart and used ducks, but very hard to parry. I think this is because of the short yet extremely powerful burst of power at the end of the Italian attack.

But as you say, the really effective part of the attack is the "preparation" - the idea becomes "How can I get my opponent to start backing up (so I am not threatened by quick attacks in prep) so I can deliver this powerful punch to the chest?"

This kind of fencing, while it looks rather curt and out of control, relies heavily on "watching" what your opponent is doing. How fast is he backing up? Is he searching for the blade? Will he duck? Is he putting out a line to take over ROW?

I think in general, Sanzo likes the "pressure/reaction/action" approach to fencing. He first puts his opponent under pressure, sees what their reaction is, them make the appropriate action to hit. Watching his bouts, you get the feeling that the opponent has absolutely no time to "be creative" or take over the pace himself. He gets swallowed up by the Sanzo game.

[reposte]

This is a very common attack, and true said Grasshopper that Golubitsky had to face a similar attack from Zennaro at the 1999 WC's.
This however, is a simple attack with absence of blade best used against a similar height fencer or a shorter fencer, and it starts in a mandatory-for-its
-seccuess low speed.
the reason the lunge is short is because - well, there is no reason other then when executed correctly it is successful.
If the defending fencer would have flown back like mad - the lunge would have been equally long.
Note that Zennaro even begins the same attack with a pris de fer.
Very simple attack with preperation, bread and butter so to speak.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by reposte

This is a very common attack, and true said Grasshopper that Golubitsky had to face a similar attack from Zennaro at the 1999 WC's.
This however, is a simple attack with absence of blade best used against a similar height fencer or a shorter fencer, and it starts in a mandatory-for-its
-seccuess low speed.
the reason the lunge is short is because - well, there is no reason other then when executed correctly it is successful.
If the defending fencer would have flown back like mad - the lunge would have been equally long.
Note that Zennaro even begins the same attack with a pris de fer.
Very simple attack with preperation, bread and butter so to speak.

That's interesting riposte. But why do you think it is best against a similar height fencer or shorter? Is that because the lunge is short and a short guy could not reach a taller opponent?

Also, if anyone could try to break down the "Italian preparation", that would be fascinating. I know it consists of a series of steps of differing length, speed and tempo, but could anyone be more specific than this?

ie: two small fast steps, one long slow one, one fast long one, etc.????? Might be hard to quantify but...

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

That's interesting riposte. But why do you think it is best against a similar height fencer or shorter? Is that because the lunge is short and a short guy could not reach a taller opponent?

Also, if anyone could try to break down the "Italian preparation", that would be fascinating. I know it consists of a series of steps of differing length, speed and tempo, but could anyone be more specific than this?

ie: two small fast steps, one long slow one, one fast long one, etc.????? Might be hard to quantify but...

don't think you can break it down, as each person has their own personal style. they do what they know works and they change it up to make sure people don't pick out patterns and catch them on it. these guys are good, they're not going to leave such a simple weakness as a pattern out in the open like that.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by noodle

don't think you can break it down, as each person has their own personal style. they do what they know works and they change it up to make sure people don't pick out patterns and catch them on it. these guys are good, they're not going to leave such a simple weakness as a pattern out in the open like that.

Yeah, but I wonder if there is some "basic" pattern or philosophy behind this...I can't imagine the Italian coaches telling some new kid to just do whatever feels right...there must be a template in the beginning...

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

Also, if anyone could try to break down the "Italian preparation", that would be fascinating. I know it consists of a series of steps of differing length, speed and tempo, but could anyone be more specific than this?

I agree it would be fascinating. The problem is, Fencing.net is the only publisher of this sort of in-depth analysis. (That I've found in English...) There is no "final word" unless it's produced by us. Every now and then there is a world champ report from the FIE, but they gloss the particulars (Sanzo is "acrobatic" but makes some "top drawer" actions).

I nominate Grasshopper to study the Italians and produce a white-paper article on why their tempo/preparations are so cool.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by wflaschka

I agree it would be fascinating. The problem is, Fencing.net is the only publisher of this sort of in-depth analysis. (That I've found in English...) There is no "final word" unless it's produced by us. Every now and then there is a world champ report from the FIE, but they gloss the particulars (Sanzo is "acrobatic" but makes some "top drawer" actions).

I nominate Grasshopper to study the Italians and produce a white-paper article on why their tempo/preparations are so cool.

OK, Walter, I'm going to do this, damn it! I vow to figure out Italian tempo and expose it to all Fencing.net members. I am going home to whip up a big bowl of pasta with meat sauce and research video - have footage of Cervi, Numa, Borella, Sanzo, Cerioni, Cassara, Vanni, Puccini spanning about 3 decades. Prepare for the comprehensive White Paper on Italian fencing.

My "personal" interest is that although I beat Sanzo 5-3 when he was 16 (I was 19) at a Junior world cup, he later kicked my arse 5-0 in 1995 in the first round of Universiade 95. I wanna know WHY!!!

Will come back to you on this shortly.

[reposte]

There is no Italian tempo.
They are simply using variant speed in order to confuse the opponent.
First to get him to desired distance, then to surprise him.
Romankov did the same thing and every Russian coach will teach you to use different speeds in an attack.
There is no set manouvre to the Italians.
It works against same height and shorter fencers not because the lunge is short - as I said, it isn't particularly short, but because the preperation can be long and rather faster then desired and a tall fencer can counter flying backwards.
If you have footage of the older Italians - you're luckier then most of us...
I can give you the best advice I can: Not to idealize the Italians, they play the nastiest game in fencing: total absence of blade and a lot of crowd behind them: I have no idea why the Germans got the bad rep for that one.

[reposte]

You might want to work on foorwork with your coach.
There is a lot of combinations of cross, demi step and lunge in Vanni's foorwork.
If he wants to get in very deep very fast he'll cross, then make that sort of demi step to balance himself (same time will derobe, most commonly with retreiving arm) and then lunge deep at the poor Chinese...

[reposte]

Noodle's right - there is no regular pattern, and believe me no no Italian coach teaches them a stance of moves.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by reposte

There is no Italian tempo.
They are simply using variant speed in order to confuse the opponent.
First to get him to desired distance, then to surprise him.
Romankov did the same thing and every Russian coach will teach you to use different speeds in an attack.
There is no set manouvre to the Italians.
It works against same height and shorter fencers not because the lunge is short - as I said, it isn't particularly short, but because the preperation can be long and rather faster then desired and a tall fencer can counter flying backwards.
If you have footage of the older Italians - you're luckier then most of us...
I can give you the best advice I can: Not to idealize the Italians, they play the nastiest game in fencing: total absence of blade and a lot of crowd behind them: I have no idea why the Germans got the bad rep for that one.

You're probably right that there is no defining Italian Tempo, but I am going to try to give a good report of their current game as a whole - in particular Sanzo, Cassara and Vanni.

I don't idealize the Italians, but I respect their creativity, especially related to tempo. If I could understand only 30% of it, I would be happy.

"Nasty" might be a big harsh...about the absence of blade, I've seen Numa make beautiful multiple disengages using same tempos as we see today, so I don't think absence of blade is completely needed...

In one of Vezzali's interview's she says that the people from here hometown of Jesi (including Trillini) have "a special kind of creativity" towards fencing. I think that is pretty cool...

[reposte]

Vezzali is one of the less imaginative fencers I've seen. I realize that's a highly personal view and I don't mean to be harsh but that's what I think.
She hardly ever parries, she uses closed actions and very simple ones at that.

Cassara, Vanni and Sanzo have entirely different styles in termsof footwork.
My recommendation is to focus on Vanni since he's the most stylish.
Also, you wanna see reel fluid classic footwork?
A German fencer called Schache.
If he were only a little bit more imaginative he could have been a great name.
He did get team Gold in Lisbon - that's where you could catch him.
Whenever I want to see 80's fluidity on piste I turn on him at my 2002 video.
Or has great footwork and- believe it or not: Americans do... that's what you get for being sensible enough to get all the good Russian coaches

If you only had more cool and didn't start playing against the Russians - you'd have team Bronze by now.

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by reposte

There is no Italian tempo.

Sounds like someone is worried you'll penetrate the secret of Italian tempo. "Why study something that doesn't exist!?" The Italians must be getting desperate.

[reposte]

You got me... now how much will it cost me to keep it between you and me?