Fencing Scholarships

[GGK]

Veeco is right. It is the coach who cannot initiate contact the student-athlete before July 1. The student can initiate contact before if they want. But the coach has restrictions and basically can only answer questions, unless the coach has known the athlete for more than 5 years.

[JEC]

So, if a coach goes to Y10 and 12 events once, then fulfills this rule???

[mike morgan]

Originally Posted by GGK

Veeco is right. It is the coach who cannot initiate contact the student-athlete before July 1. The student can initiate contact before if they want. But the coach has restrictions and basically can only answer questions, unless the coach has known the athlete for more than 5 years.

Yes, Veeco is correct. Plus there are very strict NCAA rules involving any contact between a 'student-athlete', and an "an athletes representative" such as a school's alumnus, donor or 'friend of athletics."

This might be helpful. The following details what the NCAA allows and does not allow vis-a-vis "athletic representative's" contacts with prospective student athletes. Though developed by the University of Pennsylvania's athletic department the policy is the same for all NCAA institutions.

“As a member of the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA), the University of Pennsylvania is responsible for exercising "institutional control" over its intercollegiate athletics program. Under this concept, the University is held accountable for the acts of each person identified as an "athletics representative."
By NCAA definition, an "athletics representative" is any individual who is a member of a Penn intercollegiate athletics "Friends" group, has made contributions to a "Friends" group or to the Department of Intercollegiate Athletics (DIA), is involved in any manner in recruiting prospects for participation in intercollegiate athletics or in providing benefits (e.g., summer jobs) to enrolled student-athletes, or is otherwise involved in promoting Penn's athletics program. Once an individual is identified as such a representative, the person retains that identity indefinitely.

Under NCAA legislation, "athletics representatives" are prohibited from any contact, including letters and telephone calls, for purposes of athletic team recruitment with prospective student-athletes, their relatives or legal guardians. Such contacts are to be initiated exclusively by authorized University athletics staff members only. Under NCAA definition, a prospective student-athlete ('prospect') is a student who has started classes for the ninth grade. If you are a Secondary Schools Committee member, you may have contact with high school students, however it is not permissible for you to discuss Penn's athletic programs.
Athletics representatives are subject to NCAA legislation that requires the University to revoke or withhold privileges of an individual who has engaged in conduct that is determined, either by the University, or the NCAA, to be a violation of NCAA regulations, regardless of whether such violation results in the imposition of sanctions. The individual shall be subject to the revocation or withholding of any athletically-related benefit or privilege, received by that individual from the University. Such benefit or privilege may include, without limitation, ticket privileges which may be withheld by the University for that period of time which the University, Ivy League, or NCAA deems appropriate. The revocation of ticket privileges may result in an individual being denied admittance to any University hosted athletic event.
Obviously, the perils for overzealous and misguided alumni and friends are many. We request that "athletics representatives" do not make athletic team recruiting contacts with prospective student-athletes at any time. No matter how well-meaning the communication, it has the potential to place our entire program in jeopardy of NCAA and possible Ivy League sanctions.”

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Mike/others:

We've been told conflicting stories about Community College attendance and its effect on NCAA scholarships.

Story #1: If you take any CC courses, even if they are taken before you would have graduated from High School (as in a homeschooling environment)...then you lose a year or more of NCAA elegibility.

Story #2: If you take less than 4 credit hours per semester (or quarter, depending on the tale), then you retain all your 4 years of NCAA elegibility.

In navigating the torturous NCAA website, I see no references to CC classes and students still of high school age. Anyone else ever had any experience with this?

[oiuyt]

I would STRONGLY suggest talking directly to an NCAA compliance officer or sending questions directly the the NCAA for things like that. There are all kinds of special cases with 2-year colleges and the rules can AFAIK be different depending on sport (football and basketball have different rules from everything else), likely based on division, whether or not the student has graduated from the 2-year school, whether or not a 4-year school was attended prior to the 2-year school, how many credits are eventually transferred into the 4-year school, whether or not the school offered the sport, etc. From the bit I've heard/found out about this I don't understand all of the reasoning (going to a 4-year school then a 2-year school, then a 4-year school without graduating from either of the first two makes one ineligible at the final school except if neither prior school offered the sport and the student entered the third school with at least 48 accepted credits, etc.). There are tons of various combinations of situations possible and likely nearly that many rules that cover.

Make friends with the compliance officer at a school near you. Won't be his/her job to help you out, but they might be willing to anyway. Don't know how good NCAA national office is at getting back to people quickly, but I suspect that they have someone to answer questions such as this. It's complicated enough that I wouldn't trust my son/daughter's eligibility to an answer from an online forum.

-B :)

[mike morgan]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I would STRONGLY suggest talking directly to an NCAA compliance officer or sending questions directly the the NCAA for things like that. There are all kinds of special cases with 2-year colleges and the rules can AFAIK be different depending on sport (football and basketball have different rules from everything else), likely based on division, whether or not the student has graduated from the 2-year school, whether or not a 4-year school was attended prior to the 2-year school, how many credits are eventually transferred into the 4-year school, whether or not the school offered the sport, etc. From the bit I've heard/found out about this I don't understand all of the reasoning (going to a 4-year school then a 2-year school, then a 4-year school without graduating from either of the first two makes one ineligible at the final school except if neither prior school offered the sport and the student entered the third school with at least 48 accepted credits, etc.). There are tons of various combinations of situations possible and likely nearly that many rules that cover.

Make friends with the compliance officer at a school near you. Won't be his/her job to help you out, but they might be willing to anyway. Don't know how good NCAA national office is at getting back to people quickly, but I suspect that they have someone to answer questions such as this. It's complicated enough that I wouldn't trust my son/daughter's eligibility to an answer from an online forum.

-B

Oiuyt's advice is right on target! Compliance issues are an absolute maze of complexity.

Good luck.

[DHCJr]

Oiuyt is right to double check as my imformation may be out of date. The CC courses you take may or may not count. It depends if you signed up through your high school. When I was with Long Beach, the CC courses enroled through the high school were considered at most honors courses.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I would STRONGLY suggest talking directly to an NCAA compliance officer or sending questions directly the the NCAA for things like that.

I actually sent an e-mail to the NCAA clearinghouse/homeschool address posing this very question, and here's the answer I received:

(insert sound of lonely wind whistling thru the tumbleweeds as they bounce across a vacant, barren western Kansas landscape)
That's right...nothing. Zip. Nada.

Originally Posted by oiuyt

It's complicated enough that I wouldn't trust my son/daughter's eligibility to an answer from an online forum.

What, not every answer on this forum is spot-on? We're trying to get some info directly from one of the university folks we know.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I would STRONGLY suggest talking directly to an NCAA compliance officer or sending questions directly the the NCAA for things like that.

I actually sent an e-mail to the NCAA clearinghouse/homeschool address posing this very question, and here's the answer I received:

(insert sound of lonely wind whistling thru the tumbleweeds as they bounce across a vacant, barren western Kansas landscape)
That's right...nothing. Zip. Nada.

Originally Posted by oiuyt

It's complicated enough that I wouldn't trust my son/daughter's eligibility to an answer from an online forum.

What, not every answer on this forum is spot-on? We're trying to get some info directly from one of the university folks we know.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Oiuyt is right to double check as my imformation may be out of date. The CC courses you take may or may not count. It depends if you signed up through your high school. When I was with Long Beach, the CC courses enroled through the high school were considered at most honors courses.

I think they are wanting them NOT to count. As a homeschooling parent myself, I understand how hard it is to get kids accomodated for high school classes. If they can take a class in community college that will teach them the material but not count as a college class and get the clock ticking, that would be peachy.
Classes such as chemistry, biology and physics in a community college situation are more beneficial due to the labs that most folks don't have at home. They need those kinds of classes for the almighty transcript.
A second language is much easier to learn in a class.
It is sort of a catch 22. If the fencer is allowed to take the classes they need for college, but then cannot take the classes or they will void out their opportunity for a scholarship. That would be BAD. .
Should a kid give up the potential for a college scholarship to get on with their education?
Correct answers would be nice to know.
I've been told:
They can take three hours a quarter/semester.
They can take up to nine hours a sememester as long as they do not get accepted into the CC.
They can get accepted into the CC, take up to 12 hours but cannot declare a major.
They can have 9 credit hours a year.
Very confusing.

[DHCJr]

As I said at most they count as honor courses. The NCAA does not care about High School honor courses as far as counting your time. I will try to make it clearer and as I said this may be out of date. If the CC courses were signed up through your High School, no problem. If you went to the CC directly, problem.

[mike morgan]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

I actually sent an e-mail to the NCAA clearinghouse/homeschool address posing this very question, and here's the answer I received:

(insert sound of lonely wind whistling thru the tumbleweeds as they bounce across a vacant, barren western Kansas landscape)
That's right...nothing. Zip. Nada.


What, not every answer on this forum is spot-on? We're trying to get some info directly from one of the university folks we know.

Hello Capt. Slo-mo.

This may be helpful to you. It comes straight from an NCAA Division I University compliance officer:

"NCAA rules stipulate that a student-athlete's five-year clock begins with full-time enrollment in a four or two-year college. Therefore, technically, if a student while in high school, enrolls in courses at the local 2-year college and the number of credits taken is equal to or greater than the number required for full-time standing, the student will be considered to have started college. If a student were to have two years of high school remaining, then technically, it could be argued that the student only has three years remaining on his or her NCAA 5-year clock. This would serve to limit their college participation to 3 seasons.

It is hard to believe that a high school would allow a student to be a full-time college student while still enrolled in the high school."

[I_luv_saber]

Yes, Stanford does give out scholarships... 100% no doubt sure.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by mike morgan

It is hard to believe that a high school would allow a student to be a full-time college student while still enrolled in the high school."

Actually, it's a fairly common practice, at least in western Massachusetts. Many students take a few college courses while still in high school, and I would probably estimate 5-10% take college courses almost exclusively.

[Foilling Around]

Reviving an old thread I started last year, I'd like to thank all those who gave advice. There seems to be a lot of confusion about the College fencing set up.

My summary is that no-one on your side of the pond seems to have an overview of which colleges give scholarships for fencing. As this is a fundamental way of keeping intelligent/tallented youngsters in the sport I would have thought this would be something that the US fencing people ought to get a handle on. In Britain we have no such problem as the fencing scolarship concept hardly exisits.

From my own point of view, the NCAA rules of being "approached" by a coach or having know them in advance do not come in to play, as we are in England.

Last year it was very speculative, but now Daughter has started making a mark. She is just 14, a 1990 birthday, but made L64 at a Cadet foil event in Slovakia (only 3 of the 9 American girls got further) and L32 at a very strong Cadet foil event in Jena, Germany (only 2 of the 7 American girls got further). She has also won the Silver Medal in British U6 foil

My strategy at present is to keep a detailed file of her results at National and International level. When I get close to the time to think about University/College I will effectively have a portfolio of information to send to potentally interested offerers of scholarships. At that point I will make serious efforts to find who might be receptive to such an approach.

If she performs to potential she will have made the Great Britain team for the World Cadets next year and/or the year after and may have her name known by American coaches who attend international events.

This is all very new to me and I feel a bit like a scheming father planning his daughter's future. I reality it is her choice. I see my job as to point out and make available opportunities for her to take up if she chooses.

I also think it is something other tallented British Fencers should think about so I want to gather as much information as I can about the process and disceminate it round the British fencing scene.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Hopkins does NOT offer fencing scholarships. They, also, are Division III in all sports except for lacrosse (men's and women's). LAX scholarships? Yes. Fencing? No.

-B
*also a Hopkins grad*

Oiuyt,
What years were you at Hopkins? Did you fence? I was there MA & PhD from 97-2004. Fenced a couple of times at the club, but grad school always got in the way.
harry

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by Foilling Around

This is all very new to me and I feel a bit like a scheming father planning his daughter's future. I reality it is her choice. I see my job as to point out and make available opportunities for her to take up if she chooses.

Yes, indeed.

You might appreciate my view from "the other side." One of my sons is due to graduate from Penn State this spring, having been on a four-year fencing scholarship. Here are my observations and suggestions.

- Your daughter has innate aptitudes and motivation. Make sure you know what they are. Her internal motivation and attitude is crucial to her personal success.
- Universities, large and small, each have their own personality that includes strengths and weaknesses. It is more important to find a good university match for your daughter than a good scholarship. (Currently, I have children attending three very different colleges.)
- Fencing can provide your daughter with benefits that will last long after tournament medals and trophies become tarnished and dusty: maturity, mental discipline, experience, and a positive attitude.
- Unless your daughter plans to become a fencing coach, the point in all this is a good college education with the goal of a productive career outside of fencing.

Now, with this perspective, here are some factors to consider:

- There are very few fencing scholarships in the U.S. Among those currently providing DIV I NCAA fencing scholarships include: Penn State, Ohio State, Notre Dame, and a few more (all on the east coast). Universities, especially state institutions, often accept more students than they can accommodate, so the preferential registration benefits (such as your daughter getting into the classes she wants) are worth as much as a scholarship. Not getting into the right classes often results in students having to continue for an extra year or more!
- Familiarize yourself with the NCAA clearing house--most of the NCAA rules were put in place to suppress abuses. See www.ncaaclearinghouse.net/. This process was a little more involved in our situation because we homeschool.
- Make sure your daughter has a coach with good credentials, strong national and international results, and excellent personal coaching skills. In my son's case, he was very fortunate in being coached by Marcos Lucchetti, who now coaches at Princeton.
- Your daughter needs consistently strong results in national and Junior World Cup events, especially those being observed by coaches and recruiters in the season before she plans to start college. In the U.S., this means finishing events in the top eight. Coaches are looking for style, competitive spirit, and potential.
- As a previous contributer noted, timing is important. Coaches are looking to fill vacancies left by graduating seniors or to bolster a weak area on the team.
- And last, but not least, make sure your daughter has good grades, good study habits, and good test-taking skills. Getting accepted by a university is one factor, maintaining academic progress and NCAA eligibility is another.

Best wishes,

Dieter

[DHCJr]

There is at least one NOT on the east coast, Stanford.

[downunder]

I've just recieved a fencing scholarship to the University of Sydney... maybe a bit far away for you lot though