Dropping the foil - cheat tactic?

[capa]

I have been told that when a fencer drops his/her foil, the bout stops.

However, a person I bouted today chooses to drop his foil at the most convenient of times. Is this normal: dropping a foil 4 times throughout a practice bout of up to 3 touches? He only began dropping his foil when I reached 2 and he remained 0.

Whenever I parry his atatck and have a clear reposte - he drops his blade!!! He then casually asks, 'what happened?' or complains, 'you parry too hard!', 'you're too rough'.

I think he has discovered that dropping his foil is a perfect cheat tactic. Is it? Must the bout stop if he drops his foil? Can he be penalised?

It was only a practice bout but I cannot beleive how frustrating it was. It irritated me. Such a wonderful sport tainted by spoilt rich kids.

Then again, are there any restrictions on snappy parries? Was I 'too rough', as he suggested?

My coach later recommended I try sabre.

[Purple Fencer]

If I were directing, I would only allow droppping of the weapon if it was actually knocked out of his hand. In that case you should make sure the weapon is dropped to the ground only to show that it was indeed knocked out of your hand, rendering you unable to participate in the action.

Everyone loses their grip on occasion.


But dropping the weapon ONLY to avoid a touch is the same as leaving the strip for the same reason.

[The0ne]

If you make a parry repost, and he drops his foil after your repost, as long as your repost is direct, it is your touch. If you start an action and he drops his foil, as long as you finish directly (ie don't make an extra preperation) the drop doesn't stop the action--your touch stands.

Basically, if you begin a simple action before he drops his foil and you hit, you get the point.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by The0ne

If you make a parry repost, and he drops his foil after your repost, as long as your repost is direct, it is your touch. If you start an action and he drops his foil, as long as you finish directly (ie don't make an extra preperation) the drop doesn't stop the action--your touch stands.

Basically, if you begin a simple action before he drops his foil and you hit, you get the point.

this is true because of the exact type of situation you describe.

you don't want to fence and have your opponent go "oops, did you start an attack? my blade seems to have fallen, looks like there's no touch"

[Tomas N]

I don't know the exact rule, but TheOne is correct. You have one fencing time to hit your opponent when she drops her blade. I tend to let go of my blade if I think there's the possibility of it breaking (simultaneous lunges or fleches) but dropping it so often is unusual. Is your partner a new fencer? If so, he may have a problem holding onto a french grip, especially against harder attacks on the blade.

As for parrying too hard, I'm not a big fan of wild parries whackiing me on the knuckles, but I am a big fan of disengaging around wild parries...

Tomas

[Robert (2)]

If my oponent has a habit of beating very hard on the blade with no real intention of attacking I tend to let the weapon drop. The alternative is to end up with a poor hold on your weapon if you are using a french.

Robert

[kalivor]

An action occurs when it starts, not when it finishes. So if you make a riposte directly from your parry, the riposte occurs before your opponent's foil is dropped. Because of this, it's a very poor cheat tactic -- it's based entirely on the hope that the opponent stops or that the referee applies the rules incorrectly.

If you are too rough, you'll find yourself unable to catch a parry against other fencers at your level/just a bit better than you. An overly strong parry really requires a larger arm motion, which would make it obvious to your opponent, and easy to avoid. If you're not finding that your opponents know exactly when and where you're going to parry, and this guy is the only one dropping his foil, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

So ... where am I with questions:

Is it a perfect cheat tactic? No, it's a very poor one, as it doesn't actually work.
Must the bout stop because he drops his foil? Yes, but as I mentioned, you get to finish whatever action you're performing. You cannot, however, launch an attack AFTER he drops his foil.
Can he be penalised? Yes. Not only should the referee be rewarding your ripostes in these instances, but if he's using it as a tactic to delay the bout, he can be penalised with a yellow card (first offense), then a red card (subsequent offenses). Note that if he's dropping it on parry-ripostes and beat-attacks, he's not really delaying the bout, as you're scoring first. Not to mention that you're already scoring points, so a referee is unlikely to hand out a penalty in that situation, anyways.
Are there restrictions on snappy parries? No.
Were you too rough? Probably not, unless you're experiencing the problems I detailed above, and/or your coach is telling you that you are.

[mrbiggs]

If he's using a french, and you're using a pistol, it is possible that he really did drop it. Fencers with french grips have very little lateral strength compared to pistol grip fencers.

Actually, I have a question (thus the edit).
First, I fence foil.

I close distance pretty often, and as a result, my blade occaisionally gets caught in my opponent's lamé or something. I often let go of my blade at that time, because if I was to follow through, it would probably break in half. Could I get yellow carded for that?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

at the risk of incurring the wrath of other members, my solution is to give him a big bruise. When he drops his weapon, nail him on the nipple, really, really, hard. We will cling to that weapon for dear life, and therefore not drop it. That will break him of sucking eggs after a couple of blood bruises. I only reccomend it if he wont stop and you've talked to him about it.

[EpeeConvert]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

at the risk of incurring the wrath of other members, my solution is to give him a big bruise. When he drops his weapon, nail him on the nipple, really, really, hard. We will cling to that weapon for dear life, and therefore not drop it. That will break him of sucking eggs after a couple of blood bruises. I only reccomend it if he wont stop and you've talked to him about it.

I agree with dfp. If you do find out that he is intentionally doing something that is insulting to the sport then make him pay. i've dished out a select few bruises to team mates to intentionally ram their shoulders into me (we went from sabre where corps-a-corps was a immediate card to epee where a little contact is ok but they kinda ran with it). when i tell them they cant do that and show them the rule and they continue intentionally i dont feel to bad about a bad flick, or a shot to the mask. just so long as you do the action while they intentionally do whatever it is thats pissing you off and you do it once to let them know.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Robert (2)

If my oponent has a habit of beating very hard on the blade with no real intention of attacking I tend to let the weapon drop. The alternative is to end up with a poor hold on your weapon if you are using a french.

Robert

I think a better solution would be to disengage.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

at the risk of incurring the wrath of other members, my solution is to give him a big bruise. When he drops his weapon, nail him on the nipple, really, really, hard. We will cling to that weapon for dear life, and therefore not drop it. That will break him of sucking eggs after a couple of blood bruises. I only reccomend it if he wont stop and you've talked to him about it.

What's the point? You're already scoring the hit -- there's no need to encourage your opponent to fence better, and if it's a teammate, then why would you want to hurt them?

On the other hand, if you are going to do this, it's better to stick your tip on their nipple, then twist. THAT hurts.

[keith]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I close distance pretty often, and as a result, my blade occaisionally gets caught in my opponent's lamé or something. I often let go of my blade at that time, because if I was to follow through, it would probably break in half. Could I get yellow carded for that?

nope, you shouldn't be. Dropping your foil is a bad habit though; try breaking the wrist more, withdrawing the arm etc. Once you drop your blade your opponent gets one action to hit you - a free shot. Better to hang on and try for the hit yourself.

on topic. if someone is dropping on you in a club after beats etc just practice hitting immediately - a gentle tap perhaps. You may not get the hit in the club but in competition you will - if this fencer doesn't want to take advice don't bother giving it. Also it is practice, fencers will accidently drop their weapon in bouts - this way you learn to respond with a simple hit rather than with a gentlemanly step back to allow your opponent to regain control.

Also all this stuff about it being normal with a french grip - it isn't. If you are fencing with that grip you have to adapt your play, keep it out of the way of beats and froissements pratice your disengages - its a different tactical game. If they can't do these things or aren't trying to learn its not your fault if you disarm them. In fact one of the best tactics against someone using a french grip is to force them to tighten their grip (and so nullify the fingerwork advantage) by using beats, pris de fer etc etc

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

My logic behind this is that I was working on a sideways wrist flick in epee. I got nailed bloody bad. It tought me very quicky what would work and what would not work. I wouldnt learn it so fast if I had to be told that it would happen... I guess what I'm trying to say is that immediate pain makes a very good teacher.

[Robert (2)]

Originally Posted by keith

In fact one of the best tactics against someone using a french grip is to force them to tighten their grip (and so nullify the fingerwork advantage) by using beats, pris de fer etc etc

This is very rare but it does happen with some heavy handed fencers coming from epee to foil. If someone is engaging in gamesmanship and repeatedly beating at the blade then sooner or later they might make contact. What they are hoping is to neutralize the french grip by forcing the fencer into a reactive sabre grip. When it happens they are not immediately following through with an attack. So you just drop the blade and take a step back, after a few hits like this your opponent stops bothering. The strategy Keith suggests is gamesmanship, so you match it with gamesmanship.

Robert

[keith]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

My logic behind this is that I was working on a sideways wrist flick in epee. I got nailed bloody bad. It tought me very quicky what would work and what would not work. I wouldnt learn it so fast if I had to be told that it would happen... I guess what I'm trying to say is that immediate pain makes a very good teacher.

lets see you were practising flicking an epee to the wrist with team mates during a bout without a practice sleeve

jesus himself would have been unable to resist the fleche to throat.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Robert (2)

This is very rare but it does happen with some heavy handed fencers coming from epee to foil. If someone is engaging in gamesmanship and repeatedly beating at the blade then sooner or later they might make contact. What they are hoping is to neutralize the french grip by forcing the fencer into a reactive sabre grip. When it happens they are not immediately following through with an attack. So you just drop the blade and take a step back, after a few hits like this your opponent stops bothering. The strategy Keith suggests is gamesmanship, so you match it with gamesmanship.

Robert

well said.

Just sitting swinging at your opponents blade is daft; you will pay heavily - especially in epee and also in foil since you end up over preparing.

My point was that opponents who blame you when they drop their weapon should be ignored. Unless you are using a foil like a cutlass.

But some attacks can be very effective against fencers who use a french grip but don't have the skill to exploit its strengths. All the actions I outlined can be performed with a french grip - so its not a pistol vs french thing.

[edew]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

If he's using a french, and you're using a pistol, it is possible that he really did drop it. Fencers with french grips have very little lateral strength compared to pistol grip fencers.

Actually, I have a question (thus the edit).
First, I fence foil.

I close distance pretty often, and as a result, my blade occaisionally gets caught in my opponent's lamé or something. I often let go of my blade at that time, because if I was to follow through, it would probably break in half. Could I get yellow carded for that?

Presumably, you've hit your opponent already. If you landed flat, chances are you're not going to bend it that much (unless it's at the "double this bend" kind of landing flat, in which case, your blade's pretty shot). Once you hit, you're allowed to release your weapon (and that happens to all fencers on occasions, too).

[MikeHarm]

I think there are much better ways of dealing with beats on the blade however heavy handed than dropping your weapon. I've found that the harder the opponent tries to beat the more at a disadvantage they are once I learned to counter it.

If you aren't confortable with disengages or placing your blade in their weak zones of the beat I would think that learning a guard thats out of line would be the thing to do.

[Morion]

I fence with a French grip against a whole Salle full of people who use pistol grips. I've only been disarmed a handfull of times in one and a half years I've been fencing. It's not THAT hard to keep a grip on a French!