Dropping the foil - cheat tactic?

[mackillian]

I've found it the same way with French grip--it isn't that hard to keep ahold of it, nor is it easy for someone to beat my blade hard enough to make me grip my weapon too tightly. And I agree with the disengage--if you're beating my blade too much and not DO anything with it, then you aren't going to find my blade after a couple annoying beats.

[elberto]

Originally Posted by prototoast

I think a better solution would be to disengage.

yep if they are parrying that hard and you disengage their blade will keep going as if to hit yor for a fraction of a second whereupon you can "nail their hide to the wall" but in a nice way...

No need to educate then in the ways of pain (as tempting as that may be) - have found that fencing hard with people makes them fence hard and someone gets hurt...maybe not much but a bruise or two is not a nice reminder....

Anyway of someone is fencing hard the best and most insulting way to beat them is to hit them as fast and nicely as possible and beat them so hat they know their tactic does not work and they wil not use it (well at least not against you as it doesn't work) . but if people find strength or strong parries work they will contnue doing them as basically it works and it is another of those bad habits it is sometimes hard to lose...

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by keith

My point was that opponents who blame you when they drop their weapon should be ignored. Unless you are using a foil like a cutlass.

Capa's coach has recommended that he try sabre, so, apparently he is using his foil like a cutlass.

[keith]

Originally Posted by nahouw

Capa's coach has recommended that he try sabre, so, apparently he is using his foil like a cutlass.

ah

[random fencer p]

of course this is a cheat tactic. a smart ref will see right through it and give the other fencer the benefit of their action. similiar to epee fencers remising to the floor when they are about to be hit. on nongrounded strips many of them remise to the floor to prevent the other light. anyone have any ideas about what the ref can do there?

[dunastor]

Originally Posted by random fencer p

on nongrounded strips many of them remise to the floor to prevent the other light. anyone have any ideas about what the ref can do there?

Purposefull hits not on the opponent are covered in the rules...

[suregrip]

I changed over to the French Grip this past Spring, and I will never go back to pistol. While I will admit it took me quite a while to 'relearn' my point control, I find it much more accurate with the French.

I was only disarmed once. I don't grip my blade hard, but DO disengage a lot. I can't imagine losing control and dropping a blade if fencing with a pistol grip. To me, there'd be no way that could happen unless you just let go (like others said, to preserve their blade from being snapped or something).

[random fencer p]

Originally Posted by dunastor

Purposefull hits not on the opponent are covered in the rules...

gee, thanks for the update. good luck proving it as a ref. guess you don't ref much epee.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by random fencer p

gee, thanks for the update. good luck proving it as a ref. guess you don't ref much epee.

Proving it? What the referee sees and calls is what happened. Their subjective opinion in this case (that the hit not on the opponent was purposeful) is proof enough. I can't imagine that there would be a successful appeal of such a call.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by random fencer p

gee, thanks for the update. good luck proving it as a ref. guess you don't ref much epee.

Originally Posted by kalivor

I can't imagine that there would be a successful appeal of such a call.

bam, group 2 red card instantly. There can be no appeal at all. If the fencer was to appeal, he would receive a group 1 yellow card (even tho he has already had a red card, and assuming he has no other group 1 offences that bout) for unjustified appeal. There is never a justified appeal on a point of fact, only on misinterpretations or misapplications of the rules

[keith]

Originally Posted by downunder

bam, group 2 red card instantly. There can be no appeal at all. If the fencer was to appeal, he would receive a group 1 yellow card (even tho he has already had a red card, and assuming he has no other group 1 offences that bout) for unjustified appeal. There is never a justified appeal on a point of fact, only on misinterpretations or misapplications of the rules

out of curiosity, how strictly would you enforce this rule?

Thinking of the examples were poor technique is more to blame than intent. So a large sloppy parry/preparation due to surprise at an opponents action - one that if it hadn't set of a light would have allowed an easy hit for the opponent.

verbal warning before a card, an immediate card or ignored since there was no intent?

[Joe biebel]

I think it is important to make the distinction between "dropping" the weapon and having it knocked out of your hand. There are several possible cases.

In a case where the weapon is knocked out of the hand, the attack or riposte that is underway would count as a touch, if it arrived valid. A halt, even if is said quick enough to be before the arriving action, would not negate the touch.

If there is any sort of delay, let's say the attacker is surprised by knocking the weapon out of the opponents hand and does not make a continuous action, then a halt will stop the action before a touch can be scored.

Here's an interesting situation that happened to me while I was fencing injured, a few months ago. With my hand taped and bandaged, I could not get a decent grip on my weapon. Time after time my opponent would beat or parry and knock the weapon out of my hand. They would either not really be ready to attack or riposte, and halt was consistantly called stopping the next action. There was some grumbling and some questions directed toward me from the director about what I was doing, but there was no cheating involved or intent. The opponent complained a little bit, and the director said something to the effect "don't blame me, why don't you just finish the action?"

I can also see where purposely dropping the weapon might be acceptable. Personally, I have had a weapon nearly knocked out of my hand many times. My instinct is to try and maintain contact with the weapon even though I no longer have the entire grip in my hand. I almost always wish I had dropped it and gotten a halt as I retreat out of distance. The problem is, it happens so fast and so rarely that I have not been able to program that reaction into my brain.

I can see where this (dropping the weapon) could be used as a tactic, to cheat, to get a halt when your in "trouble", but, it would depend on your opponent making the mistake of not finishing the action. I'm guessing, that a director would really have to be convinced it was purposefull before carding the fencer.

Joe Biebel

[downunder]

Originally Posted by keith

out of curiosity, how strictly would you enforce this rule?

Thinking of the examples were poor technique is more to blame than intent. So a large sloppy parry/preparation due to surprise at an opponents action - one that if it hadn't set of a light would have allowed an easy hit for the opponent.

verbal warning before a card, an immediate card or ignored since there was no intent?

just to clarify here: we are discussing deliberate hits not on opponent (e.g. floor)

Unless it is intentional, and designed to stop the phrase deliberately (e.g. at epee in close quarters, one could stab the ground deliberately to halt the phrase and thus not be hit), it is not an offense. Just got back from refereeing at a little kids competition (god help us all), and that situation occurred more times than i can count. Its just a matter of restarting the bout, assuming the off target light was in time.