Passing of some giants

[Victor]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

True, but saber takes a toll on the knees more than any other weapon....

(I post this with some reluctance, because I recognize the risk of the tangent overwhelming the original thread. BUT...)

Why do you say that? I haven't noticed many more ex-saber fencers on crutches than practitioners of the other two weapons.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Victor

(I post this with some reluctance, because I recognize the risk of the tangent overwhelming the original thread. BUT...)

Why do you say that? I haven't noticed many more ex-saber fencers on crutches than practitioners of the other two weapons.

I would think this since saber is so much faster than foil or epee, so your knees recieve more wear and tear from the super-saber-footwork.

[peircer]

Originally Posted by kalivor

Well, he's 35 right now, and Trillini's 34 -- so some might argue that 36 might not be too bad for Olympic-level fencing.

The 39 years old that he'll be in 2008, though -- it would be tough to maintain the level he's at.

Wasn't Romankov like almost 50 when he got the bronze in 88?

[reposte]

Kielpikowski retired at 40 after achieving individual Bronze at Lisbon.

[reposte]

Wasn't Romankov like almost 50 when he got the bronze in 88

He was near 40, I do believe.

[jspierre]

Originally Posted by reposte

He was near 40, I do believe.

Ok, but the exception doesn't make the rule; our current crop of outstanding fencers in all 3 weapons are going to seed, and while one may even out last someone like Romanov, basically we hv a changing of the guard. I posted this since we saw some likely final Olympics performances by the group I had in mind.

I think you have to think in terms of what national squads could look like w/out Trillini, Kolobkov, Obry and the like.

[misha]

Originally Posted by jspierre

I think you have to think in terms of what national squads could look like w/out Trillini, Kolobkov, Obry and the like.

When I am looking at the Russian ME squad, I am thinking that
Kolobkov would stick with competitive fencing for a few more years,
unless somebody offers him a good paying coach position.



.

[jspierre]

Originally Posted by misha

When I am looking at the Russian ME squad, I am thinking that
Kolobkov would stick with competitive fencing for a few more years,
unless somebody offers him a good paying coach position.



.

Kolobkov is amazing, and would whip just about anybody's butt on the strip, at this age, and older. He's professional, and I imagine he'll stay in the sport, as you say, as a coach. He's been in and out of the U.S., I think in Ohio State, and elsewhere.

(Off the topic: The U.S. really needs a top level ME coach. I would say of the 3 squads the U.S. sent to the OG's, ME was the weakest, and arguably because of coaching. The two best competitors, in my mind, on the U.S. ME team were Thompson (beat Rota to gain 7th place finish in the individuals!) and Vivianni, who only sub'ed into the ME Team event, but to me showed a much more intelligent style, and game than what I saw of Mattern and Kelsey. I think Thompson and Vivianni both hv European coaches, despite Soter being the official U.S. ME coach.)

Somewhere in the U.S., I believe there is a six-figure salary for a top-flight ME coach. Maybe it could be Kolobkov.

[veeco]

There are tons of very good men's epee coaches in the US. Both Soren's and Jan's coaches are very good coaches. Udel, who coaches at the FC is also a great coach, and Paul Soter, although a little different from the others, isn't a bad coach either.

I think what really keeps the US epee results a little below the other weapons is the depth of this weapon internationally (a lot more countries have strong contenders in this weapon), the fact that it is much more difficult to get consistent good results, and the fact that traditionally epee is a weapon at which your results peak at a later age.

One of the problems with the US fencers has been that they would get good results when they are young, but once out of college and in need to get a life and actually make money, they wouldn't be able to sustain the same level of commitment to their sport. This year's men's epee team is very young, and if they keep fencing and keep practicing as much as they have in the past 4 years, they could very well be winning medals internationally as a team.

So I wouldn't blame the relatively weaker results of the men's epee team only on their coaches.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by jspierre

Kolobkov is amazing, and would whip just about anybody's butt on the strip, at this age, and older. He's professional, and I imagine he'll stay in the sport, as you say, as a coach. He's been in and out of the U.S., I think in Ohio State, and elsewhere.

...

Somewhere in the U.S., I believe there is a six-figure salary for a top-flight ME coach. Maybe it could be Kolobkov.

Kolobkov is already pretty much the coach of the Russian men's epee team. Perhaps not officially, but unofficially, whatever he says is whatever happens. I don't think Beketov has ever challenged any decision that Kolobkov has taken for the team. Kolobkov is also much more experienced than Beketov is.

[sabreman]

A few years ago Kolobkov did a series of clinics in the DC area and gave lessons at our club (NIH). He is also a great coach.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by veeco

There are tons of very good men's epee coaches in the US. <snip>
I think what really keeps the US epee results a little below the other weapons is the depth of this weapon internationally (a lot more countries have strong contenders in this weapon), the fact that it is much more difficult to get consistent good results, and the fact that traditionally epee is a weapon at which your results peak at a later age.

I agree with Veeco, there are a lot of good epee coaches in the United States (and I would add Gary Copeland to the list). I do think that the United States suffers from a lack of DEPTH of coaching in epee. Our best coaches are very good, but there aren't enough good "rank and file" coaches who aren't teaching epee as more than a foil with no right of way. The lack of depth in coaching has a direct impact on the depth of the competition in the US, which then hurts us internationally.

I think that US epee fencers have also been lagging behind the other two weapons in the individual approach to the weapon. Our best epee fencers train as athletes. But that is not the case with epee fencers in general, who perpetuate misconceptions like: "epee doesn't involve footwork". These fencers fail to train hard physically and rely on technique or a small bag of tricks to do well at the local, regional, and sometimes even National level. I am starting to see more and more epee fencers train harder for their sport, but I saw foil and saber fencers do this more consistantly, years before.

That will change in the next four years. I think that the US epee will improve. Certainly the results of this Olympics have shown that the US squad can compete at a world level. China in 2008 should see if the United States can capitalize on this belief.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

[veeco]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I agree with Veeco, there are a lot of good epee coaches in the United States (and I would add Gary Copeland to the list). I do think that the United States suffers from a lack of DEPTH of coaching in epee. Our best coaches are very good, but there aren't enough good "rank and file" coaches who aren't teaching epee as more than a foil with no right of way. The lack of depth in coaching has a direct impact on the depth of the competition in the US, which then hurts us internationally.

Yes. That is a good point which I didn't have in mind. Of course, my list of coaches wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list. I certainly cannot claim to know all of the good epee coaches in the US.

[Allen Evans]

Veeco:

I knew you meant no slight to Gary Copeland. I took it upon myself to mention him as another good coach in the US.

Allen Evans
Dominion Fencing

[dekko]

With all of these folks retiring from competitions, does this set up the USA for a better showing at the WC's than we had at the OG's? We did very well in Athens but does this set us up to do much better next year?

[reposte]

Guys, while this thread has produced some nice fencing talk, it is superfluous: To gather that Kolobkov or Pozdniakov should retire just because they've come anything other then individual gold is ridiculous - no offence to the thread starter.

I'm more into foil but I have a very good and intelligent Epee fencer at my club and after one day of praising Kolobkov and rendering him one notch above Jeneat I was scolded severelly by him. He told me that seeing K beat J' at Lisbon doesn't mean J' hasn't beaten him numerous times at other occasions.
Fischer is no unworthy adversary, he is one of the top Epee fencers in the world.
No one is unbeatable even though they are the best. If it were so we'de see a string of Romankov's on the FIE Palamers , instead we only see his name a mere total of 5 times...

[jspierre]

Originally Posted by reposte

Guys, while this thread has produced some nice fencing talk, it is superfluous: To gather that Kolobkov or Pozdniakov should retire just because they've come anything other then individual gold is ridiculous - no offence to the thread starter.

I'm more into foil but I have a very good and intelligent Epee fencer at my club and after one day of praising Kolobkov and rendering him one notch above Jeneat I was scolded severelly by him. He told me that seeing K beat J' at Lisbon doesn't mean J' hasn't beaten him numerous times at other occasions.
Fischer is no unworthy adversary, he is one of the top Epee fencers in the world.
No one is unbeatable even though they are the best. If it were so we'de see a string of Romankov's on the FIE Palamers , instead we only see his name a mere total of 5 times...

Sorry, you've misunderstood me: I did not wish to say that these fencers *should* retire since they *did not* win gold at the OGs. What I thought I said is that given their age, they are highly unlikely to be dominant any longer and, even more unlikely to make the '08 OGs in Beijing. So in this next quadrenial (4-yr cycle), they will graduadly disappear, and that this is no ordinary group: some of these names have dominated their weapons in the sport for a very long time, in fencing terms. Some, argueably, seen from a historical perspecitve, are all time bests or close to it at their sport.

I do take your point that no one is unbeatable, especially in epee, but that's beside the pt of this string, which wants to solicit opinion from knowledgable people about the changing of the guard that I see at the top.

From your vantage point, Reposte, do you see a wave of retirements from these top names, or others that I haven't considered at this juncture?

[jspierre]

Originally Posted by dekko

With all of these folks retiring from competitions, does this set up the USA for a better showing at the WC's than we had at the OG's? We did very well in Athens but does this set us up to do much better next year?

That's a tough question, but it doesn't logically flow that retirements of these guys (Trillini, Kolobkov, et al) adds up to necessarily better results for U.S. fencers at WCs in the coming years. The up-and-coming fencers in all 3 weapons are vy strong, internationally, and some of the U.S. top fencers may leave the sport. How much longer will Keith Smart compete internationally? Or Ivan Lee?

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by jspierre

That's a tough question, but it doesn't logically flow that retirements of these guys (Trillini, Kolobkov, et al) adds up to necessarily better results for U.S. fencers at WCs in the coming years. The up-and-coming fencers in all 3 weapons are vy strong, internationally, and some of the U.S. top fencers may leave the sport. How much longer will Keith Smart compete internationally? Or Ivan Lee?

Eventually it could improve the usa international results: Kolobkov et al. move to the US, kick butt in the USFA for a couple years improving our domestic level of competition (making the veterans comp even harder ) and then take on coaching jobs, charging and making more than they could at home - as well as enjoying the corpulent lifestyle of the rest of us Americans.

[JEC]

Originally Posted by Artisan

Eventually it could improve the usa international results: Kolobkov et al. move to the US, kick butt in the USFA for a couple years improving our domestic level of competition (making the veterans comp even harder ) and then take on coaching jobs, charging and making more than they could at home - as well as enjoying the corpulent lifestyle of the rest of us Americans.

I would contend that this is the primary reason why the US did so well this OG as compared to the recent past. The US got a significant influx of foreign coaches who have improved the level. The coaches came to the US because it was financially a great proposition. Perhaps if you can't make it to the X national team coach, you might consider emigrating to the US.