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wadadli · 08-27-2004, 02:39 PM

ok..how do you overcome a situation where the people you're practicing with are causing you to develop bad habits?? i mean, last time i fenced i think i even regressed a bit after just fencing this one guy and drilling with him. i felt horrible..my actions were totally uncharacteristic. i'm not saying i'm really good or anything but clearly i was improving steadily but now the setback.

the thing is, i really don't have any options at this point. its either fence these 1 or 2 guys since no one else does sabre or not fence at all. i go to another club and get good fencing but i can't go more than once a week (distance and time restrictions). should i just settle for the once a week good practice session since the other one isn't doing any good or can i find some way to work around the bad fencing for the sake of just practicing on more days?? i really need more than one good day per week.

mrbiggs · 08-27-2004, 02:46 PM

I think this problem is pretty standard; I know it happens to me all the time.

Personally, I think it's better to fence than to not fence, even if whoever you fence gives you bad habits.

It's good that you identified the problem, because if you know the bad habits they give you, you can concentrate while fencing to make sure that you fence correctly. If you fence them more than once a week, then winning bouts doesn't have to be a priority. You can concentrate on your form, and if you lose a bout 15-10 that you would have won 15-13, then so be it.

kalivor · 08-27-2004, 02:48 PM

What is it about these other fencers that gives you bad habits? I've found that, generally speaking, going all out and fencing to win against inferior clubmates can set you back. Being disciplined, working on specific actions, and concentrating on doing one or two things correctly will prevent regression, and usually help to improve one's fencing, regardless of the quality of your opponent.

And remember -- if a drill's not working for you, either ask a coach for help (if one's available) or change the drill.

The biggest thing to avoid is to beat these guys by doing something that you know is a bad habit, but works against them.

wadadli · 08-27-2004, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalivor

What is it about these other fencers that gives you bad habits?

i get big untidy actions that gets me killed probably at competitions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalivor

I've found that, generally speaking, going all out and fencing to win against inferior clubmates can set you back. Being disciplined, working on specific actions, and concentrating on doing one or two things correctly will prevent regression, and usually help to improve one's fencing, regardless of the quality of your opponent.

i think i am guilty of this. i keep thinking that if i don't hammer them then they'll keep doing the wrong thing thinking that it works when it doesn't. unfortunately, this compromises my progress in the process.
also, working on specific things doesn't really help because they don't give me the reactions that i want, or they don't give me the reactions that fencers i'll face at tournaments do. how do i get around this????

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalivor

The biggest thing to avoid is to beat these guys by doing something that you know is a bad habit, but works against them.

as i said above i'm guilty of this probably...i'll see what i can do to change this...

thanks guys

grotto · 08-27-2004, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadadli

ok..how do you overcome a situation where the people you're practicing with are causing you to develop bad habits?? i mean, last time i fenced i think i even regressed a bit after just fencing this one guy and drilling with him. i felt horrible..my actions were totally uncharacteristic. i'm not saying i'm really good or anything but clearly i was improving steadily but now the setback.

Ask em to work drills where the goal is really nice actions <head cut parry repost flank etc.> making it a point that you are working for smooth and clean for drills.

Quote:

the thing is, i really don't have any options at this point. its either fence these 1 or 2 guys since no one else does sabre or not fence at all. i go to another club and get good fencing but i can't go more than once a week (distance and time restrictions). should i just settle for the once a week good practice session since the other one isn't doing any good or can i find some way to work around the bad fencing for the sake of just practicing on more days?? i really need more than one good day per week.

Use the good fencing nights to work on the "game" and the crappy nights to work on the form, if you can con the other two to doing the clean drills the problem will fix itself. then both nights will be "good"

sreckiki · 08-27-2004, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadadli

ok..how do you overcome a situation where the people you're practicing with are causing you to develop bad habits?? i mean, last time i fenced i think i even regressed a bit after just fencing this one guy and drilling with him. i felt horrible..my actions were totally uncharacteristic. i'm not saying i'm really good or anything but clearly i was improving steadily but now the setback.

I think lessons can help to avoid this issue.

wadadli · 08-27-2004, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sreckiki

I think lessons can help to avoid this issue.

you're right..they do but the other sessions tend to "undo" all what i gained from the lessons.

kalivor · 08-27-2004, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadadli

working on specific things doesn't really help because they don't give me the reactions that i want, or they don't give me the reactions that fencers i'll face at tournaments do. how do i get around this????

Work on simpler things: Parry and direct riposte. Lines (and derobements). Footspeed getting in and out (make a direct attack with a step-lunge to any line you like, then retreat to avoid the riposte whether you hit or not).

While more complicated actions might not get the right reactions (unless rediculously large), the smaller building blocks can always use some help. The majority of hits at all levels are made using the footwork and handwork that fencers learn in their first year fencing.

Plus, once your opponents adjust to having to face your simple & direct tactics they'll start to react more "appropriately" to your actions, allowing you to eventually work on more complicated actions as they improve.

You can use your time at the other club to practice more complicated things, or to practice fencing to win.

P00Man · 08-27-2004, 03:57 PM

work on specific things in bouting and make sure you take your time and make sure YOUR form is correct in drills.

for an example in a bout:
dont give a damn about winning, cause youre not their to whoop up on them, just practice actions. take one action you want to practice it and try to work it into the bout as often as possible.

try selling a false temp (this is very difficult to do against an inexperienced fencer cause they dont know the danger it is supposed to represtent) and then a distance parry.

work on discovering the necessary timing for a feint, which will probably be much slower than you would expect.

these are all things that are difficult to do against a weaker fencer. use this as an opportunity to practice actions you want to practice in an uncontrolled environment (ie in a bout) and this will help keep you from losing form and will increase your understanding of tactics and such.

achilleus · 08-28-2004, 06:20 PM

To sum up, it's a simple solution:

Bout less.

Drill more.

More footwork.
More pointwork.
More bladework.
.

FencingWench · 08-28-2004, 11:51 PM

I feel your pain! I, too, am a sabrist in a club full of foilists and epeeists. My only real sabre fencing comes during lessons, which I get roughly once a week. But I can't not fence of course. So if there aren't any sabrists, or the sabrists there aren't cutting it for me, for whatever reason, I fence foil. I don't like it, I'm not good at it. But I get to practice my footwork and ROW.

And I agree with everyone else. I picked up some bad habits last spring fencing the two or three other sabrists in my club. But that was my fault, too. I have enough to work on that no matter how bad the other fencer was, I should have been able to work on something. I'm trying out this theory now, and so far, so good. I work on whatever I can and switch actions if I'm getting sloppy, even if it means taking some hits against me.

wadadli · 08-29-2004, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by achilleus

To sum up, it's a simple solution:

Bout less.

Drill more.

More footwork.
More pointwork.
More bladework.
.

thats just the thing: the coach puts me to drill with them and THATS where i get the bad habits. the thing is, these guys aren't experienced enough to know what we're supposed to be gaining from the particular drill so what tends to happen is that in order to make the drill work, i would actually react differently to what they are giving me to what i would do in a real bout if given the same action..if this makes sense...and thats where i get messed up.

achilleus · 08-29-2004, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadadli

thats just the thing: the coach puts me to drill with them and THATS where i get the bad habits. the thing is, these guys aren't experienced enough to know what we're supposed to be gaining from the particular drill so what tends to happen is that in order to make the drill work, i would actually react differently to what they are giving me to what i would do in a real bout if given the same action..if this makes sense...and thats where i get messed up.

I never said drill with them.

On your own, you can drill footwork, pointwork, and to a lesser extent bladework.

It's not fun, and people will look at you strangely, but it works. Then when you get on strip at the club you fence a few bouts to work out tactical actions. Make sure the bouts are short, but happen every time you go in.

So, your practice schedule might look like so:

Warm up and stretch - 10 min
Physical training - 30 min
Footwork - 30 min
Pointwork - 15 min
Bladework - 15 min
Lesson - 20 to 30 min
Theme bouts 30 min (by theme I mean you are working on an action, tactic, technique, etc...)
Cool down/stretch - 10 min

That's nearly 3 hours of practice. Minimizing your bouting time keeps you mentally fresh which allows you to actually practice against your opponents as opposed to fall into old habits. You also won't get as bored of fencing the same, easy to fence people day in, day out.

When you go to the other club, you want to maximize your bouting time, so get in all your conditioning, drills, and practice at your regular club.

fencingguy · 08-29-2004, 05:52 PM

Thats great advice, Achilleus.