Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

EricS · 08-26-2004, 04:16 PM

Vaguely amusing photo of Damien Touya "shooting" his just-defeated opponent Keeth Smart. http://sekimori.org/archives/003546.php

Apparently there is some controversy as to the veracity of this. Was anyone there that can confirm or deny Touya's injury?

veeco · 08-26-2004, 04:33 PM

He was definitely bleeding quite a lot, and on the slow motion replay, it is possible to see Keeth's blade getting inside his guard, and break up. So I am pretty sure that the injury was real.

Finally, Smart is nowhere to be seen on the picture. Could it be possible that he is actually shooting at his teammates and celebrating his last touch? Why does this have to be "The Bad Frenchman" shooting at the poor American he just defeated?

I'd be curious to see how Smart would have celebrated had he scored the last touch, instead of Touya...

whtouche · 08-26-2004, 04:42 PM

Don't try to rationalize it. Anyone who saw the video knows it was terrible sportsmanship from a fencer who, I get the impression at least, is an *** hole. Sure there was lots of wild celebration on his part, but the shooting was obviously directed at keeth, and if not he shouldn't even have done it in such a way that it could be construed that way.

Honestly tho, celebrating so much over a touch the referee handed over to you on a plate is a bit rediculous, I think.
As for the veracity of the injury, I think it was real and he did seem to be in alot of pain. You could see at the action initially before it was called simultaneous both fencers pumped their fists and did their regular celebration, but once realizing his hand was pierced and he didn't simply get hit thru the bellguard, he went pale.
But it's hard to feel bad for him after his behavior..

ViewtifulMisho · 08-26-2004, 04:47 PM

The touch was against Keeth, just as it was when facing Pozdniakov.

veeco · 08-26-2004, 04:52 PM

I saw the video. I have it taped right here. At no point can you see at the same time in the same frame Keeth and Touya, while he is doing his celebration.

If you read my post here: http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...142#post163142

you will see that some American teams had actually also thought about doing the same thing, from a sports psychology perspective, to keep the spirits in their team high.

Finally, there has been dubious touches awarded to French fencers during these Olympics (see Guyart's last touch against Joppich, for a clear example), but this touch wasn't dubious at all. If you watch the slow motion, you will clearly see that Keeth isn't starting an attack as clearly as Touya is, and that he is either searching for the blade, or pulling his arm back (depending on the angle you see it).

whtouche · 08-26-2004, 05:46 PM

And I have watched the tape, several times in slow motion and the last touch was nothing even close to decisive, and certainly not that *** holes. And not just that touch, there was at least one touch before, maybe that put touya at 44, that was just given to him as well. The referee was obviously looking for a reason to award points the wrong way.
As for keeth and damien not being in the same frame when touya is doing his machine gun, it doesn't matter. First of all it's in the direction of keeth, so that falls under "It could be construed that way" - which he shouldn't have come near. And second, even if he is mock shooting his team mates (cuz that makes a LOT of sense) it's still a retarded showing of bad sportsmanship.

veeco · 08-26-2004, 06:21 PM

Whatever. If that's what you want to believe, and that makes you sleep better at night, fine. I just watched the tape again, and to me it looks like Keeth is on the opposite side of the strip, discussing with the referee, that Damien is shooting at.

However, on the dubious touch, I just want to ask you one thing. If you feel so strongly that the bout was fixed, why do you think that the referee gave 2 simultaneous calls right before giving that last touch to Touya? I mean, he could have given either one of those to the French, just as much as the last one if that was the case? If you try and watch the slowmo of the last touch and keep an open mind, you will see that Keeth Smart's hand is right next to his thigh when he makes the attack, whereas Touya is already extending.

Finally, when I referee, I try not to call my touches depending on whether one of the fencers is an ******* or not.

wflaschka · 08-26-2004, 07:31 PM

I have it on video too (thanks, Tivo), and it's not possible to see who Touya is aiming at. He was off-strip, pointing back towards his squad. Smart was already far off strip talking to the director.

I'm giving Touya the benefit of the doubt.

Aeric · 08-26-2004, 08:26 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...3678007592.jpg

Is he grabbing the other guy's epee?!

rukovsoft · 08-26-2004, 08:53 PM

he could have gotten a card for doing that if he had pointing out at his opponent. For god's sake just accept Smart (closely) lost. I ve been in the US ofr 3 years, and at every level i have seen acts of unsportmanship...no more or not less than in France..it s just the same.
Touya might be what you call an #$%$%hole...but not for disrespecting his opponent.
In france, you systematically (and i mean it) get a card if you disrespect or simply show your fist to the opponent.

DanInMI · 08-26-2004, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whtouche

Don't try to rationalize it. Anyone who saw the video knows it was terrible sportsmanship from a fencer who, I get the impression at least, is an *** hole. Sure there was lots of wild celebration on his part, but the shooting was obviously directed at keeth, and if not he shouldn't even have done it in such a way that it could be construed that way.

Honestly tho, celebrating so much over a touch the referee handed over to you on a plate is a bit rediculous, I think.
As for the veracity of the injury, I think it was real and he did seem to be in alot of pain. You could see at the action initially before it was called simultaneous both fencers pumped their fists and did their regular celebration, but once realizing his hand was pierced and he didn't simply get hit thru the bellguard, he went pale.
But it's hard to feel bad for him after his behavior..

yes....really it was a great win considering his injury. But his victory celebration was attrocious. I can not imagine anyone doing that in my division and not being black carded for it.

mrbiggs · 08-26-2004, 11:49 PM

I just think it's great that there's still a sport where people can have their hands run through.

And then complete the bout, after a ten minute break.

And it's not even mentioned in the news.

Long live fencing

Black Jeebus · 08-27-2004, 12:00 AM

The thing that bugs me is that there is a difference between exuberant celebration and a complete lack of decorum.

ViewtifulMisho · 08-27-2004, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Jeebus

The thing that bugs me is that there is a difference between exuberant celebration and a complete lack of decorum.

Why would that bug you? Do you want rifle mimings to become the standard form of celebration?

Black Jeebus · 08-27-2004, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ViewtifulMisho

Why would that bug you? Do you want rifle mimings to become the standard form of celebration?

Hmm guess I could have phrased that better huh?

I think Touya acted without any regard for decorum and that bothers me.

fence1848 · 08-27-2004, 01:25 AM

Hey, you know what? Have you ever won an Olympic gold medal in your sport before? No? Then don't be so quick to criticize. Personally, I think he looked childish, but he's the one that won the gold medal for his team, so it's his moment.

Even Mariel Zagunis almost forgot to salute her opponent after winning her gold medal bout, though her behavior didn't even come close to Touya's.

reposte · 08-27-2004, 02:09 AM

I think that many people have very strong feelings against any non
iceberg-ean behaviour on the piste, I read somewhere a very strong minded reproach of the innocent Montano celebration (the man winning what would probably be his only Olympic gold didn't do much to apeace the critic) and it seems too strong in my view.
Firstly, Touya could have imitated an electric guitar. Secondly, he obviously did it towarsd his team mates (the fact that it doesn't make any sense - chanes nothing. That is not a "sensible" gesture) and Smart's or Lee's dances at the beginning of the bout did nothing to raise anyone's resentment - may I remind you it was mid bout and not at the end!

I personally didn't like Flessel's shout at her Hungarian opponent at the WE semi's but that just seems directly aimed at a losing opponent.
I also didn't like the way she barely shook hands with Nagy after her loss.

Lastly, the existence of Anne Lise atones for whatever sins the Touya family perpetrates...

K Degnon · 08-27-2004, 08:04 AM

Maybe what we need is a poll to determine whether or not Touya's actions are sportsmanlike

.

Radiophonicus · 08-27-2004, 09:20 AM

I think it's obvious to all that the "celebration" was too much. I haven't been involved in fencing that long, but I have been involved in sports and competitions for many years. Running and jumping around while pretending that your Sabre is a gun is just silly. I think we can all agree on that. I don't care if it's a Frenchmen, an American or anyone else for that matter. It's just blatantly disrespectful and shouldn't be tolerated.

mlr2fence · 08-27-2004, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radiophonicus

I think it's obvious to all that the "celebration" was too much. I haven't been involved in fencing that long, but I have been involved in sports and competitions for many years. Running and jumping around while pretending that your Sabre is a gun is just silly. I think we can all agree on that. I don't care if it's a Frenchmen, an American or anyone else for that matter. It's just blatantly disrespectful and shouldn't be tolerated.

Not only that, but in this day and age 'pretending' to 'shoot' people is definitely showing poor judgement, much less poor sportsmanship no matter who or what he was aiming at. The last thing fencing needs is for a fencer to use his 'weapon' as a mock weapon and on a world stage.