Touya's "Saber Rifle"

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by fence1848

Hey, you know what? Have you ever won an Olympic gold medal in your sport before? No? Then don't be so quick to criticize. Personally, I think he looked childish, but he's the one that won the gold medal for his team, so it's his moment.

Even Mariel Zagunis almost forgot to salute her opponent after winning her gold medal bout, though her behavior didn't even come close to Touya's.

Um, yeah - but that wasn't the gold medal match. But that's ok don't bother to know what we're talking about before piping in.
And mariel zagunis didn't forget to salute anyone, I don't think. Watch the video she's spinning around saluting everyone, the director just thought it should be more specific. And to compare the two things is assinine.
As for someone who raised the possibility that he could have been miming an electric guitar...maybe you didn't see the tape? Or are just arguing for the sake of being difficult?

And no, it's not obvious who he's aiming at, since when the camera pans back from touya towards smart he's standing off in the direction of where touya was aiming. Like I said, maybe he was 'shooting' his team mates, even tho it doesn't make sense, but he shouldn't have even done something like that if it could be construed the way many people have construed it. And it's not because he's french, and it's not because I don't like exuberant displays of celebration - I'm mostly in favor of them.
But that crossed the line - no matter how you want to be a hyper-apologist for him.

[fence1848]

Originally Posted by whtouche

Um, yeah - but that wasn't the gold medal match. But that's ok don't bother to know what we're talking about before piping in.
And mariel zagunis didn't forget to salute anyone, I don't think. Watch the video she's spinning around saluting everyone, the director just thought it should be more specific. And to compare the two things is assinine.

Congratulations, you managed to completely miss my point.

You're right, I wasn't paying attention that it was not the gold medal bout, but it still guaranteed him a medal, either gold or silver. There's also the pride he can take in winning the bout with a weapon hand that was pierced by his opponent's blade.

The point is, he had a lot of reason to be happy, and most of us don't know what it's like to be at that level of competition and succeed.

By the way, comparing refusal to salute to unsportsmanlike conduct is definitely NOT assinine. You will still get a black card for refusing to salute your opponent. That is still a fundamental of the sport. While celebration is subjective to the point of view, the salute is specifically in the rules and refusing to salute is a blatant disregard for the rules, the referee, and appropriate behavior.

Fortunately, Mariel did not refuse to salute, she was just a little distracted to do it initially. I did not see her salute before the ref reminded her, and I don't consider a spinning salute sufficient. If the referee has to verbally remind you to salute, you need to be more careful.

[whtouche]

And YOU seemed to miss the point of my post.
Nobody is questioning whether it is appropriate to celebrate after winning a bout, ANY bout, at any level.

But celebrating by pretending to shoot your opponant(or anyone) with a gun, is inappropriate. Tell me, if YOU were the referee, in a hypothetical situation where someone had just won a bout, and you saw him pretending to shoot his opponant with a rifle, would you not black card him?

And I did not compare refusal to salute to touyas 'celebration'. You misread, or deliberately misinterpreted my post. Mariel did not, by your own admission, refuse to salute anyone.
One is deliberate, the other is not. There's a big difference, and you're arguing about things that are a non-issue.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by fence1848

Hey, you know what? Have you ever won an Olympic gold medal in your sport before? No? Then don't be so quick to criticize. Personally, I think he looked childish, but he's the one that won the gold medal for his team, so it's his moment.

Even Mariel Zagunis almost forgot to salute her opponent after winning her gold medal bout, though her behavior didn't even come close to Touya's.

What?

Mariel was excited and forgot to salute, but cheerfully did so when reminded. She did not thumb her nose and yell "in your face you loser!" at her opponent.

In my opinion, that is what Touya's antics amounted to. And there is NO way that i can imagine that sort of behavior would be tolerated at lower level tournaments.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by whtouche

Um, yeah - but that wasn't the gold medal match. But that's ok don't bother to know what we're talking about before piping in.
And mariel zagunis didn't forget to salute anyone, I don't think. Watch the video she's spinning around saluting everyone, the director just thought it should be more specific. And to compare the two things is assinine.
As for someone who raised the possibility that he could have been miming an electric guitar...maybe you didn't see the tape? Or are just arguing for the sake of being difficult?

And no, it's not obvious who he's aiming at, since when the camera pans back from touya towards smart he's standing off in the direction of where touya was aiming. Like I said, maybe he was 'shooting' his team mates, even tho it doesn't make sense, but he shouldn't have even done something like that if it could be construed the way many people have construed it. And it's not because he's french, and it's not because I don't like exuberant displays of celebration - I'm mostly in favor of them.
But that crossed the line - no matter how you want to be a hyper-apologist for him.

You are exactly correct.

[Inquartata]

Obviously, he was shooting at his comrades. If he had really been aiming his weapon at an "enemy", it would have had a white flag tied to the end of it.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by EricS

Apparently there is some controversy as to the veracity of this. Was anyone there that can confirm or deny Touya's injury?

Saw a photo of Touya kneeling at the side of the strip holding his hand, and a rather large puddle of blood on the strip. So unless he just started bleeding spontaneously...

[EricS]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Saw a photo of Touya kneeling at the side of the strip holding his hand, and a rather large puddle of blood on the strip. So unless he just started bleeding spontaneously...

Good enough for me...

[P00Man]

yeah, that thing was gushing, i think i saw a little bit bleeding through is glove too at the last touch, though it may have been just a stain or a bit of body chord or just a mistake on my part.

[The Red Feather]

I just watched the video of this bout again (thanks, TiVo!). After the final touch, Touya is shouting and jumping at his end of the strip. In the middle of celebrating, he grabs his blade in the middle with his off hand and sort of shakes it and points emphatically down the strip—it's not clearly a gun gesture this first time, in my opinion, it might just be exuberance. The second time, though, he very clearly grabs the blade again, crouches a bit, aims, and makes a little "recoil" gesture as if firing off a round, with a very angry expression on his face. He's standing just off the side of the strip closer to the camera with his blade parallel to the strip. A few seconds later, the camera pans back to the right and we see Smart, apparently standing still just off the strip on the camera side, right where Touya was aiming.

While there's no way to know with 100% certainty what was going through Touya's mind at the time, I don't really have any doubt he was miming "shooting" Smart. I don't think they should have disqualified him for it, but he's still a jackass.

[Black Jeebus]

Originally Posted by The Red Feather

I don't think they should have disqualified him for it, but he's still a jackass.

That's about how I feel, and the only reason that I would feel reluctant to BCard him is cause its the Olympics.

[jspierre]

hey, by the way, at the Olympics ( I was there), a lot of guys forgot to salute, and the directors came over to them and gently reminded them to do it, then they did. I saw this at least several times, and liked the idea that the directors were helpful.

Now, as for celebrations, and antics, nothing can compare to the Italian men's foil team for being totally over the top, and by the way, as for controversial calls made by directors, nothing can compare to the Hungarian directors mistakes, which cost the Chinese team 6 touches, and the Gold. Along with Hamm, maybe the Italians should hand the gold medals over to the Chinese, who should have won had the director known his job, and suffered the rants and ravings of Sanzo, Cassara and especially, Vanni.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by jspierre

Now, as for celebrations, and antics, nothing can compare to the Italian men's foil team for being totally over the top, and by the way, as for controversial calls made by directors, nothing can compare to the Hungarian directors mistakes, which cost the Chinese team 6 touches, and the Gold. Along with Hamm, maybe the Italians should hand the gold medals over to the Chinese, who should have won had the director known his job, and suffered the rants and ravings of Sanzo, Cassara and especially, Vanni.

You know, I watched the men's team foil last night, and I didn't think the director did that bad a job--there were touches that I thought should have gone the other way, but nothing appeared really egregious to me, in terms of the judging. Most of the touches that appeared to be wrong to me were in very close to simultaneous situations. In fact, the referee appeared to be favoring the Chinese occasionally, because of the antics of the Italians. The German commentators actually said something to this effect.

What I did find egregious was the penchant for the Italians to sit down to avoid a touch--if falling was still penalized with a yellow card, followed by a red for the second offense, the Chinese would have won hands down.

I have to say that I continue to be puzzled by men's top-level foil in general...

Has the FIE posted a list of the actions that the referee was supposed to have gotten wrong? I would like to see it.

MR

[reposte]

Vanni received a yellow card for feignting an injury and I think then a red one for falling down - that caused an uproar at the Italian bench - if not the Italian hall - but Kielpikowski was tough on them.

What interests me is to know from someone who was there:
Which way did the cheering of the non involved nations go?
Who did the French cheered for or the Germans?
Can anyone inform me?

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Obviously, he was shooting at his comrades. If he had really been aiming his weapon at an "enemy", it would have had a white flag tied to the end of it.

Ok...i gotta defend the French on that one.
If it weren't for the french we would still be a british colony.
When Cornwallis surrendered in the american revolution he was surendering to 3 times as many French soldiers as American. They financed, and fought, our revolution.

[whtouche]

And if not for us they would be speaking german now.
Previous bail outs no matter how significant, don't provide immunity from criticism, IMO.
Whether the criticism is pertinent to the thread at hand is another subject

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by DanInMI

Ok...i gotta defend the French on that one.
If it weren't for the french we would still be a british colony.
When Cornwallis surrendered in the american revolution he was surendering to 3 times as many French soldiers as American. They financed, and fought, our revolution.

Yes, the French were tough soldiers and staunch allies...200 years ago. Things do change. I think we paid that score about 60 years back.

Damn you, see what you've done, you got my argumentative reflex up! The original post was just a joke and now I'm actually defending the stupid position!

[achilleus]

The rifle wasn't a black cardable offense. It was assinine though.

To make matters worse, relations between France and USA aren't good.

Veeco, using Soter as an example of sportsmanship isn't a good idea. That man is one of the worst examples of sportsmanship I've ever seen.

Personally, I'm glad I didn't see team USA shooting pistols at each other. I think I would've laughed.

[reposte]

If it weren't for the french we would still be a british colony.

And now Brittain's an American colony...

[veeco]

Originally Posted by achilleus

To make matters worse, relations between France and USA aren't good.

Whether relations between France and USA are good or not is irrelevant. It is the Olympics and people are supposed to be nice to each other. Especially athletes competing against each other. And those athletes are nothing but athletes. They are not there to represent the interests or the quality of the relations between one country or another. That might not have been the case during the cold war, but the cold war is over!

Originally Posted by achilleus

Veeco, using Soter as an example of sportsmanship isn't a good idea. That man is one of the worst examples of sportsmanship I've ever seen.

I wasn't trying to give an example of good or bad sportmanship. I was simply pointing out the fact that someone else might have thought that he was shooting at his teammates and not at his opponent, since they had had the same idea a couple of days before the event occured.

To me, Damien Touya's sabre rifle isn't good, or bad sportmanship. It's just something that happened, and I don't try to read into it or to give an explanation of why it happened. There were plenty of "antics" as someone would say in this bout, on both sides. Damien Touya's last celebration was an other one of them. Whether you find it offensive or not is your problem. I am merely arguing why I don't find it offensive and why I think it wasn't necessary to make such a big deal out of it.

If I were to pick one "offensive" thing from that bout from the French, I'd pick Gael Touya's screaming in one of the American's faces a couple of bouts earlier.