Kenjutsu VS Fencing

[Devin]

I am working on a novel that pits a saber weilding fencer against a samurai. Could anybody please tell me some tactics or situations that might occur if such an encounter were to take place?
Devin Ehrig

[The Crazy Wacker]

Is the samurai on foot?? I'm asuming he's using a katana... Does the amurai have on armor?? Is this sabre weilding guy like Zorro?

[Stryder]

The sabre and the katana are a bad match. The sabrist wouldn't be able to parry the two handed shots of the katana, but assuming there is ample room for the sabrist to move the samurai wouldn't be able to catch him without running.
I see hours of the sabrist nicking the samurai's clothing, hands and arms until the samurai either corners him and kills him quickly or gets frustrated and rushes him getting impaled in the process.

Frankly I don't think it would be a very good fight scene unless you throw in some obstacles to slow down the sabrist. But if you did that the fight would end in a quick grisly manner that wouldn't be any more fun to watch. (or read)

If the scene is shown from the point of view of the samurai then the audience could know that he is trying to manipulate the sabrist in to a corner so he could get inside.

In the open the bout would look like Tyson vs. Lewis. I want my money back Mike you faker!

[I see dead people]

Actually this has happened before.
You should look into the historical documents about the time when Mongol invaded Japan.
I was watching the HISTORY CHANNEL a few weeks back, and it said that the sabre wielding Mongolians was no match for the Japanese samari(a katan was much more well-made, and more reliable and deadly being 1 of the reasons). And the Japanese was able to prevent the Mongolians from landing for several weeks. And then a hurrican came and and wiped out the entired Mongolian fleet.

[ 06-16-2002: Message edited by: I see dead people ]</p>

[D'Artagnan1673]

I saw the same show.

[slosher]

I was reading a sword book in B&N and it noted while that while the japanese were superior swordsmen, they were beaten back constantly by the mongols through the use of their use of bows. Interestingly enough though, I would think that a rapier or an epee would make a much better weapon against a katana (assuming that they were unarmoured). Read some article on the net that pitted a rapier against a katana at various SCA events. The author makes the point that since the katana was basically a cutting sword, many wielders often made the mistake of impaling themselves as they moved forward to cut. The author concluded that what basically would happen would be the samurai would probaly get a stab wound while the fencer would be eviscarated with the incoming cut. Not exactly a win-win situation.

[neevel]

Sports sabre fencing (which is a sport _derived_ from duelling, rather than an immediately practical combat system) came primarily from the relatively lightweight (in comparison to military sabres) Radaellian duelling sabre, not from military systems. And duelling itself was a very formalized, rules-bound sort of combat, whose techniques might not be all that applicable outside of that context- thus, even if you were to take 'classical' sabre fencing as your model, it'd still be and apples-to-oranges comparison, if your intention is that the 'samurai' is supposed to be a battlefield warrior.

Some information on the context and background of the characters might be useful. Are you thinking of something taking place in the 19th century between a samurai of the period (who at the time often weren't terribly great swordsmen, having by then become an administrative elite as much as anything else) and a western soldier?

One problem is that the east vs. west fantasy has cropped up a lot of times, and there's a lot of hype and B.S. out there (katanas being intrinsically superior to other swords, etc.) clouding the issue. On many online forums where you'd be likely to find people genuinely knowledgeable about practical western swordsmanship, this concept's been done to death over and over, so there's not much enthusiasm for hashing over it yet again.

My advice is to spend some time sorting through websites on historical western swordsmanship and classical fencing, and lurking (and reading back through archives) on swordsmanship formus (such as at Swordforum.com).

BTW, the whole Mongol vs. Japan conflict, and the relative capabilities of their armies, was far more complex and nuanced than that History Channel show has it. In general, statements of particular "fact" from a History Channel show need to be treated as suspect until verified by other, more reliable sources. They're trying to churn out a lot of programming in a short time, and on a shoestring budget, so there's a distinct tendency towards sloppy research, reiterating "common-but-false" knowledge, and selecting "experts" on the basis of who's cheap and available on short notice. Not that everything they put on is flawed (at least to the extent of getting the big picture OK), but there are enough errors that you shouldn't automatically accept what's given as accurate in the details.

-Dave

[Ken Mondschein]

[quote]Originally posted by Devin:
<strong>I am working on a novel that pits a saber weilding fencer against a samurai. Could anybody please tell me some tactics or situations that might occur if such an encounter were to take place?
Devin Ehrig</strong><hr></blockquote>


In addition to what Neevel said, it goes like this: Japanese guys attempts to strike. Saberist makes stop-hit to the hand or wrist. Repeat ad nauseum. A dueling saber simply has a quicker time than a katana.

[D'Artagnan1673]

What about the stop hit and run. You may not get terribly deep penetration, but it should be enough to bring a man down within a few moments.

[thebigriddle]

Well, some of the guys I do kendo with are pretty damn good. Some of the tactics that are used, generally rely on counter attacks. There ideas of swordplay is different in the fact that you want to dominate the opponent and control the space between you, kind of like a chess match. The are not as concerned with parrying, although it is done on occasion, the focus is the cut. A big, controlled cut. You do alot of remises. The foot is similar, except the back foot is more forward. A single handed weapons is harder to cut with, tried it only made it part way against a straw mat, as with a katana, the weapon if used correctly cuts very cleanly. A lot of the tactic involving tempo and blade work are there, it is not something taught. Part of learning kendo, is you not told what to do. Ideas and concept, as well as theory is general something experienced. As I was told you practice until it makes sense, if it doesn't come to you and the technique is taught correctly then it is your fault. I am not sure if you have ever seen an experience kendoist from Japan, they are as quick a modern saberist. A basic theory is that when someone acts linear, you counter circular. The Japanese word is sin(not sure about the spelling), or the line of the attack. The oppenent attacks you from one line and then he changes the line of the attack. Meaning he attack straight at you and then you change the line by moving to the side, even just a little bit. The question about the armor is a good one, plus the experience of the samurai. Read the book the way of the samurai, remember samurai means to serve. Then there is bushi, the warrior. Like I said they counter attack, they draw them in. The mind set of the samurai also is "I am dead before I fight". That can summarize their ideals. Find a dogo if you want to learn more. Kenjutsu, is best describe as a military technique, vs kendo, or the way, in which any man becomes a swordsman. Then there is iaido. Which is the art of drawing the sword. As my sensai would say they are anti assisination techniques.

[thebigriddle]

Oh, the comments made, I also do saber as well as teach it. The kendoist also does stop cuts or counter time. The concept is not taught, but with an experience kendoist it is learned. The best tactic is a point attack with quick small disengages, unless they take the blade. Of course there are several schools of thought in Japan on the subject. I have been doing kendo and iai for about two or three years. I do it well, but to the Japanese I am still a novice.

[135711]

i studied some of the drawings of mongolian invasions of japan especially when they tried to land in kyushu. it appears that even the women defended japan very well using wooden staves, they were able to drive off the mongolian forces, and then, a 'divine wind' appeared and finished the job. it was during that period that Nichiren prayed, specifically for the mongols to 'buzz off' and that's when a divine wind appeared. it was considered to be a sort of mystic thing and that's when the shogun decided to pardon Nichiren.
so,anyway, back to the question you posed, it also depends upon the skill of the fighter.
there is a legend in martial arts. a very well trained samuri was sitting at his writing table working on a poem. he had no weapons with him. this was during the feudal times, and an enemy walked into his study to assassinate him. the samuri jumped up and using only a paper fan, defeated him. killed him on the spot using a paper fan. he must have closed it sharply on a vital spot.

[Sciurus Rex]

This actually happened to me just a couple of months ago. Well, not directly involving me, but I watched it unfold. I was in this bar called McDamion's with these two women I had just picked up. One was a redhead, but that's not important. She had freckles, too. So this one guy at the pool table had just nudged the 8-ball out of his way with his thumb, thinking the other guy wouldn't notice, right? But the second guy was sitting down at the time so his eyes were level with the pool table. It only looked like he was picking his nose, but I think he was really concentrating on his next shot. Because before you can say, "Hold the mayo!" the second guy jumps up and accuses the first guy -- who might have been his cousin -- of cheating. Well, the first guy didn't take that very well, and he drew a katana on the second guy. Now, you've got to remember that the other woman I was with had really dark green eyes. That's important. Not really important to *this* story, but it was important to me, because I like green eyes. So the second guy screams something back at the first guy, in Swahili, I think. One of those island languages. And he draws a saber. Except that the redheaded woman I was with said it with a very slight lilt in her voice, so that it sounded almost like she said "sabre" with the 'R' before the 'E', ya know? So then the two guys start wailing on each other with their swords. And one of them is about to cut the other guy up really bad when the cops got there and arrested both of them.

I'm not sure which one was ahead. And the girl with the green eyes passed out in my car later.

I hope that helped.

[ 06-17-2002: Message edited by: Sciurus Rex ]</p>

[Inquartata]

There's a novel called "Hunters of the Red Moon" in which something close to this occurs. Actually, the protagonist uses a katana, but in the fashion of a European sabre...

[Devin]

Thanks for all the help on this. I wonder, would a british officer use a sabre or a small sword?

[fred]

As Dave Neevel pointed out, the time period is kind of important, as well as the officer's unit. If he was late 18th or early 19th century cavalry, probably a saber. Infantry or artillery, depends on the officer, and what was fashionable at the time. Probably a smallsword of some sort.