Drop foil and saber from the Olympics?

[Dee EffEll]

Josh Elliott of Sports Illustrated opines that subjective sports should be dropped from the Olympics:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...log/index.html

Presumably this would include foil and saber. But would it include things like basketball? Isn't it a subjective call to enforce a foul? Or illegal "dolphin kicks" in the breast stroke? How about balls and strikes in baseball?

Epee, of course is less subjective than the other two weapons. But isn't the decision to award a yellow card subjective?

The fencing world has an opportunity to lead in reforming this problem area in sport. We electrified our weapons starting in the 1950s. The technology has not changed singificantly since (nor did it need to. By and large, it works.) But imagine a system that uses video and very high speed imaging to acquire "control points" on each fencer's body. Digitally process the images to determine right of way via software processing. No director needed. And of course, the system, properly implemented, could be imported to other sports.

Takes a big committment of research and development dollars. But then, think of the cost savings in directors at NACs.

[noodle]

enforcing rules is a subjective process. everything is subjective to an extent.

this is a stupid idea, imho... (the removing subjective sports, that is)

i'd be all for the computer determined ROW and such, though i feel its likely not possible. there are nuances that are just nigh impossible to program and be 100% recognizable each time. i'd love to possibly work on this, though, if the FIE would like to fund me (computer engineer)

[CvilleFencer]

I suggested a system similiar to this "Robo Ref" in our division forum as a joke a while back, but I think it would be a great idea. Hard to make work and very pricey, but cool. Very cool.

[telkanuru]

I've had several conversations with people in the AI/imaging business, and they all say it is *very* hard for computers to distinguish between objects when they overlap (ie. parries). Moreover, if the white uniforms don't look foolish enough, let's put little reflective dots all over their bodies! Abort, retry, fail

[FencingWench]

But what would fencing, or any other sport for that matter, be without judges to complain about?

Seriously, I can't see the technology ever being as dependable as even flawed directors. More technology means more ways to cheat using that technology, so you still need someone to enforce rules. And people can complain about the technology failing just as easily as they can about humans making errors in judgement.

It's sports like gymnastics and figure skating that need to clean up their acts when it comes to subjectivity. Fencing, at even the highest levels, can sometimes get a bit sloppy. But as long as you hit the opponent, you've achieved the main objective. Sure, nothing beats a perfect parry riposte, but there's no style points. What the judges in gymnastics and figure skating expect is nothing short of a sick, unhealthy, near inhuman perfection--and your entire training career can mean nothing if a flip of your hand isn't graceful enough.

I think foil and sabre are safe enough for now. Good thing too...I've got some friends that need another few years before they can kick some Olympic ***.

[Epee_Pox]

Or just modify (preferably simplify) the rules so as to make scoring less of a subjective matter in the first place.

Random (and probably unworkable) ideas off the top of my head:
-- Stop it with the off-target lights. Only light up when someone's landed on target. Less confusion, less unnecessary info, less unnecessary halting.
-- Only light up the person who actually scored the point. If both people hit at the same time, there can be a "simultaneous, no point" light that goes off (so you can keep those white lights and don't have to buy new machines). And if both people hit at the same time, forget who had ROW, it doesn't matter, it's nobody's point. You think you had right of way? Too bad, you still should have taken the precaution of keeping the other guy's blade away from you.

Those two right there will make foil and sabre much less subjective, while retaining their unique wonderfulness.

[ViewtifulMisho]

The whole thing about subjectivity in sabre is a semi-myth and exists only in the lower levels of fencing. Look at the top fencers in the world (sans the Italians); Pozdniakov rarely complains. Nemcsik doesn't dwell on controversial calls. Covaliu... well, I haven't seen him in a while so I don't remember.

This is all because they know sabre is not subjective and thinking it is will only limit the level of your success. An attack ends when it ends, and you prepare when you prepare. The question is: can the director see it? If not, then he didn't see it. That's it. It's a fact. Either make it clearer next time or don't rely on that touch.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

We electrified our weapons starting in the 1950s. The technology has not changed singificantly since (nor did it need to. By and large, it works.).

You bring up some good points, but just to be clear. Foil was 'Officially' electrified in 1956, but Epee was in 1936 and in fact they were electric before then. Electric Epee is in fact older than the FIE. The first was in 1898 and it hasn't changed significantly since.

[noodle]

anyway, imho, you guys are being too linear.

1) yes, the technology has improved amazingly over the years. the boxes have become smaller, better and include more features than before. the basic idea behind them, though, hasn't changed.

2) why are you guys suggesting we use freakin video systems anyways? you could maybe use little transmitters in the bell area and tip area of the blade which will transmit their spatial coordinates. based on these coordinates, we could tell if the blade is extending based on the collapsing angle and forward movement. no photography required.

[dunastor]

I'd go with Misho here....

There's not much more subjectivity in sabre than in other sports... RoW is fixed, and everybody knows when a hit is a touche.

[veeco]

Using video systems is a bad idea anyway. Our sport is a combat sport, where stopping the action to review a video is not an option. Because it will change the rythm of a bout, and will make it less tiring, and less intense.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by dunastor

I'd go with Misho here....

There's not much more subjectivity in sabre than in other sports... RoW is fixed, and everybody knows when a hit is a touche.

The rules are fixed, but not everybody knows when a hit is a touch or not. First of all, only the ref knows, since he is the one who awards the touch, and could have a different perspective on the action than someone else in the stands.

Finally it is subjective by it's very nature: a referee has to award the points and decide who gets them. One could argue that it happens in pretty much all the sports (even epee), but it does happen to a greater degree in foil and sabre than most of the other sports.

[tchwojko]

The simplest technology would be a string/wire alongside the body cord that would stretch when extending. The tension could be measured to determine the extension of the arm. The problem is determining whether that extension constitutes taking right of way, since the extending arm alone is not sufficient under current rules.

However, could a light or some other signal denoting the tension be used to help the ref decide right of way?

Any automation would affect technique, tactics and strategy, but perhaps an aid to the referee rather than a replacement of the referee's judgement would maintain the sport's tradition better?

[sabreman]

After reviewing the video of the sabre I tape I would say the refs were correct pretty much all the time on determining ROW. The problem is that on certian simo actions numerous slo-mo replays were necessary to break down who had ROW. On video you just do not get same feel as seeing it live in real time (not on video but seeing it with your on eyes). May be there is some way to improve the slo-mo replay or the commentators need to analyze it better (show the prep in the slo-mo).

Also if any weapon is going to survive it is sabre. The FIE is showcasing sabre by the use of wireless and the masks. The action in sabre is appealing to the outside person with no knowledge of the sport.

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by noodle

why are you guys suggesting we use freakin video systems anyways? you could maybe use little transmitters in the bell area and tip area of the blade which will transmit their spatial coordinates. based on these coordinates, we could tell if the blade is extending based on the collapsing angle and forward movement. no photography required.

Yeah...i love this idea. I know that it is probably cost prohibitive right now. But it is probably do-able.

(These "spatial coordinate transmitters" combined with a VR visor helmet would make great input and monitor for a kickass computer game too, wouldn't it?)

[Aeric]

Slow motion is needed for most touchy issues on sports.

How many times have they reviewed a big event that was very close in Football? They spend almost 15 minutes on one thing. I think: Keep all the weapons, just use slow motion to tell the tough touches, like most sports do.

[darius]

The problem is that replays are often controversial, even in slow motion. In football, even with bazillions of cameras everywhere, replays often are inconclusive, which means the ruling on the field stands.

The NFL would be a good place to attempt to work such a system -- infractions at the line of scrimmage would be very easy to police, since it's a static plane, and any illegal motion could automatically be detected. RFID tags in the ball and each player's shoes could eliminate the question: "Did the ball cross the plane?" or "Did the player have both feet inbounds?" Also, millions of dollars (the gate sales from playoff games) could rest on the zebras making their calls, which means any aid would be a good thing.

Ultimately, adding instant replay to fencing would probably be more hassle than it's worth; could you imagine challenging every two-light action? Computerized reffing is not a bad idea, but it's much more difficult than people make it out to be, unless we put ping-pong balls all over the fencing uniforms.

darius

[cfaustus]

Want to remove subjectivity from fencing? Use sharps.
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Totally joking of course....

[Peach]

Nah, that'd just remove fencers from fencing.

[Teme]

It'd leave saber fencers, though. I've understood it takes considerable effort to cause permanent harm with a cut. A decent thrust would probably kill you by the time a decent cut has healed...