Bent french grips

[angriff]

From what I can see out of the few close-up shots of Fabrice Jeannet's grip, it would appear that his grip is bent to such an extent that if you could stand the guard perpendicular to the ground, the pommel is 45 degrees downwards. Can anyone provide a more accurate description of M. Jeannet's grip?

Also, I remember previously some posts describing Paolo Milanoli's grip as being with a "dog-leg bend, making it a quasi-pistol grip." But I could never find a picture of it if there ever was one.. can anyone help? Thanks

[noodle]

the bend is from a cant, which is bending the tang of the blade down and to the left or right in order to get an angle on the tip.

also, i think the french grips that pbt puts on their blades have a quality that i enjoy when i pick them up (i've never used one, though i'm considering trying) and sound like what you're describing.

[suregrip]

I thought that if you had a severe bend in your grip to where it extends past the guard - I thought that was illegal.

I started fencing with the French Grip recently and I love the point control I get from it. But I've been almost superstituous about bending it too far....I'd HATE to have an armorer tell me at tournament that my weapon was illegal because of it and I wouldn't be able to use it......

Can anyone clarify that for me?

[grotto]

Originally Posted by suregrip

I thought that if you had a severe bend in your grip to where it extends past the guard - I thought that was illegal.

I started fencing with the French Grip recently and I love the point control I get from it. But I've been almost superstituous about bending it too far....I'd HATE to have an armorer tell me at tournament that my weapon was illegal because of it and I wouldn't be able to use it......

Can anyone clarify that for me?

here is the relevant rule:

m.17 The guard, which must have a circular edge, must be able to pass through a cylindrical gauge having a diameter of 13.5 cm and a length of 15 cm, the blade being parallel to the axis of the cylinder. The depth of the guard (the distance between lines B and C) must be between 3 cm and 5.5 cm (cf. m.3). The total length between lines A and C must never be greater than 95.5 cm (cf. m.3). Eccentric mounting is allowed provided the distance between the center of the guard and the point where the blade passes the guard does not exceed 3.5 cm.

if the tang is bent excessively it will not pass the "cylinder" test as the pommel (or the end of the handle, for the new pommelless french) must pass through while the blade is parallel to the cylinder.

Armorer: you can slap me down if I misread the rules. This is how it was explained to me.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by grotto

here is the relevant rule:

m.17 The guard, which must have a circular edge, must be able to pass through a cylindrical gauge having a diameter of 13.5 cm and a length of 15 cm, the blade being parallel to the axis of the cylinder. The depth of the guard (the distance between lines B and C) must be between 3 cm and 5.5 cm (cf. m.3). The total length between lines A and C must never be greater than 95.5 cm (cf. m.3). Eccentric mounting is allowed provided the distance between the center of the guard and the point where the blade passes the guard does not exceed 3.5 cm.

if the tang is bent excessively it will not pass the "cylinder" test as the pommel (or the end of the handle, for the new pommelless french) must pass through while the blade is parallel to the cylinder.

Armorer: you can slap me down if I misread the rules. This is how it was explained to me.

You're right. And I can tell 13.5 cm is big enough to really bend your grip... I'm just boarderline with the rules and it looks weird to most of the other fencers in US... but not in France.

[neevel]

You're right with the rule, Grotto. As long as the bend in the French grip doesn't cause it to fail the cylinder gauge test, it's fine. BTW, since just about every epee guard I can think of is the maximum (135 mm) diameter, it's simple to check it the grip is legit. Just look at the weapon dead-on from the front: if you can't see any portion of the grip sticking out beyond the guard, it's fine.

-Dave

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by angriff

From what I can see out of the few close-up shots of Fabrice Jeannet's grip, it would appear that his grip is bent to such an extent that if you could stand the guard perpendicular to the ground, the pommel is 45 degrees downwards. Can anyone provide a more accurate description of M. Jeannet's grip?

Also, I remember previously some posts describing Paolo Milanoli's grip as being with a "dog-leg bend, making it a quasi-pistol grip." But I could never find a picture of it if there ever was one.. can anyone help? Thanks

Actually, I can take a picture of one of my weapons and send it to you, if you like. Just give me your email address in a PM.

[suregrip]

Dave -

You mean if I stand my epee on end and if the pommel shows somewhere around the bell, that's illegal?

[CvilleFencer]

I do believe that is what he means. I always thought that nothing could extend past the gaurd, be it grip, socket, cross piece, whatever.

Suregrip, by any chance did you fence epee at the Tractor Pull open at BFC with a dog legged French Grip last weekend?

[suregrip]

No, unfortunately I was out of town, and didn't find out about the tourney in time to change my plans. You mean someone else fences with a French Grip in our parts? I drift around, but usually I find other fencers comments about my 'strange looking epee'.

Once, a teen approached me at tournament and asked,"Is that a real epee?" I guess he'd never seen one with a French Grip before.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by suregrip

Dave -

You mean if I stand my epee on end and if the pommel shows somewhere around the bell, that's illegal?

To be really accurate, it's wrong... because my bell is a little bit smaller than 13.5 cm so you can see the end of my pommel... and that's still legal.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by suregrip

No, unfortunately I was out of town, and didn't find out about the tourney in time to change my plans. You mean someone else fences with a French Grip in our parts? I drift around, but usually I find other fencers comments about my 'strange looking epee'.

Once, a teen approached me at tournament and asked,"Is that a real epee?" I guess he'd never seen one with a French Grip before.

Suregrip, I'm fencing in DC with a "weird" French grip? Did I already fence you?

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by suregrip

You mean someone else fences with a French Grip in our parts? I drift around, but usually I find other fencers comments about my 'strange looking epee'.

Her last name is Katz and I think that she fences with the naval academy but I could be wrong about that last part. Any chance you will be at the kickoff? Maybe we will bump inot each other there. Actually I think a lot of folks on this board will probably be there. Maybe we should set up a Fencing.net meeting area?

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Her last name is Katz and I think that she fences with the naval academy but I could be wrong about that last part. Any chance you will be at the kickoff? Maybe we will bump inot each other there. Actually I think a lot of folks on this board will probably be there. Maybe we should set up a Fencing.net meeting area?

I will fence at the kickoff... if there is a kickoff open because I read yesterday on the VA division web site, it was postponed due to the lost of the venue????

Someone have more info?

Thanks.

[suregrip]

I fence in and around the area. I'll try to be at the kickoff. We have probably crossed blades sometime in the past. My occupation doesn't allow for much free time, but I fence whenever I can. (I need all the help I can get)

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by suregrip

I fence in and around the area. I'll try to be at the kickoff. We have probably crossed blades sometime in the past. My occupation doesn't allow for much free time, but I fence whenever I can. (I need all the help I can get)

I fence in the area since 3 or 4 months so if you were not in the Captain Steer Open or in the BFC event in june, I'm pretty sure we never fenced each other.

[neevel]

Since sreckiki's guard is less than the maximum size, then having a bit of the grip showing beyond the guard may be fine, so long as it the epee would fit through the cylinder gauge. The overwhelming majority of epee guards are the maximum diameter (135 mm), so the simple visual test would work for them.

-Dave

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by sreckiki

I will fence at the kickoff... if there is a kickoff open because I read yesterday on the VA division web site, it was postponed due to the lost of the venue????

Someone have more info?

Thanks.

The Kickoff was not cancelled, it just had to have the dates adjusted a bit because Fairfax county is the pit of hell, a den of slime and the source of all things evil (I used to live there so take my word for it). It will be October 2-3rd at the Annandale Campus of the NVCC just off the Annadale Exit of 495. I guess you could just shoot right up chain bridge/little river from the fairfax area as well.

So, to reinterate, there will be a kickoff, there will probably be 200+ total fencers, all events will most likely be at least A2 and there may even be a vendor! I hope I can bump into some people from the board there as that would be pretty cool. If not I will have to wait until December for the Richmond NAC.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

So, to reinterate, there will be a kickoff, there will probably be 200+ total fencers, all events will most likely be at least A2 and there may even be a vendor! I hope I can bump into some people from the board there as that would be pretty cool. If not I will have to wait until December for the Richmond NAC.

Great! That's good news! (even if we have to wait 2 more weeks to re-start to fence... I'm really looking forward to fencing there!)

Thanks!

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by angriff

From what I can see out of the few close-up shots of Fabrice Jeannet's grip, it would appear that his grip is bent to such an extent that if you could stand the guard perpendicular to the ground, the pommel is 45 degrees downwards. Can anyone provide a more accurate description of M. Jeannet's grip?

Also, I remember previously some posts describing Paolo Milanoli's grip as being with a "dog-leg bend, making it a quasi-pistol grip." But I could never find a picture of it if there ever was one.. can anyone help? Thanks

The french grip is built so that if you hold it correctly it keeps your body (skeleton aids anatomically in muscle strength) in an anatomically correct position. However, one drawback of having it mounted without any (or minimal) downward canting is that if you deviate from correct position (which in the heat of a bout will happen), you will have the potentiality that the bell guard will block your vision, and with today's athleticism, that's enough that you would lose reaction time.

Paolo and Jeannet (learning through trial and error over many years) cant their grips downward to within the allowance of the rules (pommel cannot pass the perimeter of the bell guard). They still hold the grip the same way to keep anatomically correct, however, by the cant, it mitigates the potentiality of having the bell guard blocking vision.

When ordering a weapon from any vendor, you should specify what cant you want inward and downward -- it is a personal preference, and you need to tell the vendor when you order the weapon.

Hmmm... thanks for asking your question, because I've always had my épées canted the same way as my foils, but now after I wrote this, I see that I need to have to get my épées canted more downward.