NAC's and Fencing Dollars

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by dekko

I am guessing you are one of those types who comes into the town the nationel event is in and sits in the hotel room and does nothing and makes no effort to find anything. Cleveland was boring as almost everything was closed after 5 or 6pm and it made it difficult to find somethign to do at night. Charlotte on the other hand has lots of places to go and things to do at night but you do have to get off your butt and get out of the hotel room.

That's a pretty big assumption, and as with many assumptions totally false.

It's funny, your city has stuff to do, but Cleveland's a wasteland?

I personally had the opposite encounter. I have friends in Cleveland. They don't love the location that much, but they know where to take people. The problem there was the flight, weather, and that venue. I also realize that without them, I would have been stuck, since the local stuff was far away and hard to find. The venue was also a problem. I mean couldn't they find a harder, thicker concrete floor? My chiropractor is still working out the kinks...
And the fair next door? I'm not saying loud Chrisitian Rock is all bad, but during a fencing event?

Charlotte being a big city of course has things to do. The first summer nationals they had there, I arrived over the July 4th weekend, everything was closed. Everything. The only eating establishment was a bar and grill called Rock Bottom. The rest was down hill....

People go to events to fence, not sightsee. Given that most people take the minimum amount of time off allowed, it's nice for the hotel to be near something. Or at least able to easily find something, like in KY.

Also, the concept mentioned above talks about total fencing dollars. That means cabs, car rentals, etc...

So, sorry your city didn't make my list. I'm sure it's a wonderful place to live, but for a fencing venue, it costs me a lot of money, and is very uninteresting...

Originally Posted by dekko

As for why these other larger places, NY, Boston, NJ, etc, don't have these events anymore I am guessing it's a combination of two facts. First, getting to local people to work together and make it happen is difficult at best. Second, and more, importantly, the union factor makes it too difficult for those setting up for the event, like vendors. Go your favorite vendor that was at JO's this last year how the union situation made their lives hell. Remove the union situation and get these local clubs to work together and maybe you can make it happen.

Besides last year, except for DI nationals, all the DI events were on the west coast. Yeah, that's fair.

I didn't say that all events should be on the West Coast. That's not exactly a great use of fencing dollars.

And I know why the larger places don't have the events. But a concept that was brought up and the USFA has ignored is people from the area shouldering some of the cost.

Say if the fencers in the Bay Area decided to hold an event, and each competitor from the area paid an extra $$200. They could cover costs, and still save on airfare. Since SFO, or Oak are easy and relatively cheap to fly to, even from the east coast, it would lower the fencing dollar amount.

The parents of one location tried this. They offered a larger monetary value, since many had more than one child eligible, and the offer was turned down for an overall cheaper venue.

The USFA doesn't look at overall fencing dollars. They look at their bottom line. They don't care that their concrete flooring probably adds to the medical bills of all the older competitors, or causes more injuries overall cause their cost is lower...

[dekko]

Great more musings from the individual who lives in the capital of porn. Great. I am glad you had a good time in Cleveland and they knew where to go and I am glad to hear that you had a good time in Cleveland. You are in the minority.

You are going to bring up '99? Live in the now dude! Charlotte has lots of things to do after the sun goes down. Guess you were enjoying your hotel room just a little too much. Goes we all have our idea of a good time!

Go edew, go edew, it's your birthday!

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by dekko

Great more musings from the individual who lives in the capital of porn. Great. I am glad you had a good time in Cleveland and they knew where to go and I am glad to hear that you had a good time in Cleveland. You are in the minority.

Wow, the assumptions you make. Sorry to disappoint, I don't live in the Capital of Porn. Oh, and so my listing Cleveland as an undesirable place to have a fencing tournament means that I'm in the minority?

Look, the concept is fencing dollars, and where to have tournaments. I realize you are part of the LOC for Charlotte, but it's obvious that you would rather hurl insults than actually improve the NAC's.

Originally Posted by dekko

You are going to bring up '99? Live in the now dude! Charlotte has lots of things to do after the sun goes down. Guess you were enjoying your hotel room just a little too much. Goes we all have our idea of a good time!

Go edew, go edew, it's your birthday!

After '99, I refused to go back unless absolutely neccessary. As long as it's summer nationals, and as long as none the FOC is a good friend and asks me to officiate, I won't be attending again.

OK. I give up. What's EDEW got to with it?

[dekko]

I was talking about EDEW. He lives in California, 4000+ porn films per year, suggested his hotel room looked a set from a paritcular kind of one of those kinds of films.

Also, '99 was a long time ago. Many things have changed since then. Someday you may realize this.

[darius]

I'm a big fan of cities where you get the venue, hotels, and stuff to do (primarily food) within walking distance.

Charlotte fails on that count; especially with the Merch Mart being in the middle of nowhere. I don't know if anybody else was feeling this, but airfare-wise, it cost more to go to Charlotte than to the west coast!

I don't know much about Cleveland. We were there, but staying with some friends, so the experience was just fine.

I liked Greenville, but I guess others had bad experiences.

Sacramento's fine, once you figure out which direction you have to walk to find food.

I second the Cancun idea. Or Toronto! TO's a fun city! But clearly, the solution is to just have nationals in Austin every year!

darius

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by dekko

I was talking about EDEW. He lives in California, 4000+ porn films per year, suggested his hotel room looked a set from a paritcular kind of one of those kinds of films.

Ah, I see, a veiled insult through another assumption.

Sorry, no connection with EDEW.

Originally Posted by dekko

Also, '99 was a long time ago. Many things have changed since then. Someday you may realize this.

Someday you may realize that although you love your city (and I'm sure it's great), it is not be the best place for a fencing tournament. Especially when you look at things through a total fencing dollar amount as was suggested above.

So, please, let's stay on topic and at least discuss the concept rather than hurl assumptions and insults.

Thanks.

[Artisan]

Maybe I'm the exception, but I really don't care much about things to do in a host city. I'm there to fence. As long as I can get a decent meal at the end of the day, and sleep well in a decent hotel without vermin, thats enough. Is it realistic to expect USFA to be in the tourism / entertainment business for its membership? Sure pick different cities to spread around the burden as well as share the love, but I'd rather the focus of the folks doing the organizing be on the venue the strips, the refs, the PA system, the bout committee, etc...

NAC's are brief weekend length things - go there, fence, return home. For Summer Nationals when there may be days off between your events, doing "something" is more of a factor - though I'd just as easily watch fencing as go sight seeing.

My wife would like it if host cities were interesting places to visit - then she'd be more into coming along, and I'd be glad to have her - but there's a limit to her fencing attention span (about 0.5% of mine) so soon her company turns to my distraction.

[achilleus]

No, you're not the exception. It's important to keep in mind that for most NAC's people take off the minimum amount of time they can.

So, having things close to the hotel or venue is important.

Also, ease of travel is important.

For example, South Bend in the winter is not a good place. Flights through Chicago are always backed up, but the alternatives aren't pretty either. So, getting there in the winter is never a good idea. Oh sure, the USFA gets the venue cheap, but what about the cost to everyone else?

That's the point here. Running the NAC's considering the total fencing dollars.

[achilleus]

No, you're not the exception. I'd say 50/50. I love to hit the town, but that's not always possible.

It's important to keep in mind that for most NAC's people take off the minimum amount of time they can.

So, having things close to the hotel or venue is important.

Also, ease of travel is important.

For example, South Bend in the winter is not a good place. Flights through Chicago are always backed up, but the alternatives aren't pretty either. So, getting there in the winter is never a good idea. Oh sure, the USFA gets the venue cheap, but what about the cost to everyone else?

That's the point here. Running the NAC's considering the total fencing dollars.

[whtouche]

Dekko's flying off the handle again, I see this as the beggining of a larger implosion to come on the scale not seen since whenever the last time he flipped out, before nationals.
Dekko, calm down. Charlotte wasn't a good place for a fencing tournament at all. Achilleus is right, the venue WAS in the middle of nowhere. And there were no restaurants or anywhere really worth going to within walking distance of the hotel(we eventually found one, after alot of walking - mostly uphill).
It was taking us so long to find somewhere to eat(and note that when I say us I don't mean achilleus and I, no I don't live in california, and saying california is the capital of porn is like saying the east coast is the capital of the united states) that we were very seriously considering stopping at a gas station and settling for junk food.
It looked like a really nice place, honestly. But appearances can be deceiving. Nothing to do, not suitable for fencing venue.

On the exact opposite of the spectrum however, was san jose for last years div 1/jr NAC. Now I don't have a huge ammount of NAC experience, but I really enjoyed this one. The venue was in walking distance of the hotel(infact they pretty much shared the same parking lot) and there were a LOT of things to do in the downtown area, specifically by way of restaurants and eating establishments. The hotel was nice and the venue was very nice as well, I thought.
In summation: More san jose, less charlotte. Thank you.

[Allen Evans]

I understand the concept of "total fencing dollars". I AM a little confused about the math involved. There seems an argument that the USFA should make decisions about NAC's to reduce the overall costs for fencers. That means such factors as hotels close to the venue, easy (and cheap) to fly to host cities, et cetera.

Several cities mentioned meet these criteria (as well as being "interesting" to visit) with the only downside being the cost of the venue to hold the event.

So who pays for the venue? Did I miss a previous post somewhere?

Allen Evans

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I understand the concept of "total fencing dollars". I AM a little confused about the math involved. There seems an argument that the USFA should make decisions about NAC's to reduce the overall costs for fencers. That means such factors as hotels close to the venue, easy (and cheap) to fly to host cities, et cetera.

Several cities mentioned meet these criteria (as well as being "interesting" to visit) with the only downside being the cost of the venue to hold the event.

So who pays for the venue? Did I miss a previous post somewhere?

Allen Evans

Well, in one specific incident I know of, the competitors (or at least their parents) offered to pay the difference.

The USFA nixed the idea quickly. It could, if unchecked lead to problems. But I think the NAC's should be run with the athletes and the competitors in mind.

[Mo]

Overall one of the best venues for a fencing competition was Sandy, Utah. I loved that place.
Parking was easy. There was a mall with all kinds of restaurants within walking distance of the venue. There were three hotels less than a mile away and a shuttle that ran back and forth from the hotel.
The weather was fabulous, it was a Div 2/3 cadet meet in October.

I was not impressed with Charlotte either. Friends worked on the bout committee and one of them said that the LOC was too busy eating to supply runners or get much help.
We too walked all over or paid a taxi 5 bucks a head round trip to go to places down town. With a family of five that was 25 bucks a night on top of the cost of dinner.
The prize bags were non existant, the sodas in the venue were 3 bucks. Charlotte was icky.

[dekko]

Funny how we got very high marks for volunteers and their work. Set-up, tear down, and during the event. BTW, every convention center over charges for drinks and food. As for being icky, same thing.

[Inquartata]

I agree with Mo, Sandy was quite nice. ( Therefore, there will never be another NAC there again, I'm sure. )

That was one of the problems with the "There're lots of things to do in Charlotte" position---they all needed either a rental car or a cab ride to get to from anywhere. Just what impoverished fencers pressed for time need: more ways to spend money and time.

Not that it bothered me, usually after fencing I just want to shower, nurse my sore muscles and sleep. But a restaurant in the general vicinity would be nice. Charlotte was the first city I can recall where there were virtually no services around: no stores, no restaurants, no gas stations or convenience markets, nothing.

Plus, all those trees freak a desert dweller out!

[Dee EffEll]

Originally Posted by dekko

Funny how we got very high marks for volunteers and their work. Set-up, tear down, and during the event. BTW, every convention center over charges for drinks and food. As for being icky, same thing.

Yeah. I agree that is funny. I agree the volunteers did set up, tear down, and were there during the event. I appreciate their work. The ones I spoke to were very friendly. But they couldn't get me a chair, get me access to non-icky, non-overpriced venue food, or make the room air temperature less than 90 degreesF. It was unclear if anyone could help the BC make the events run anywhere near on time.

I have never understood the food issue at venues. I can't really think that fencers can expect venues to have food fit for consumption by athletes. Oh, occasionally I'll see a stack of $2 banannas, or the bowl of questionable, over priced "fruit." But most venues serve stuff athletes can't eat. I can't eat a bag of cheetos. I can't eat BBQ sandwiches of unknown content. Your ham and processed cheese food sandwichs ($3.97 plus tax) are on bleached white "bread" that may have been prepared more than a week ago. Do you really think I can ingest a carbonated, sugared drink before I fence? There is nothing worse than a BBQ burp into the mask. Honestly, that stuff is inedible by people that pay attention to their nutrition. I always bring food in my bag for a long day - what I object to is the enforcement of "no outside food." I have seen this posted at many venues, but have yet to have anyone try to do anything about it when I open my bag of goodies.

[prototoast]

I think the usfa should make an effort to spread things around. I'd say every year there should be at least 1 event in the northeast, 1 in the southeast, 1 in the southwest, 1 in the northwest and 1 somewhere in the middle of the country. That should be every year. They can move it around as long as they hit those 5 points, but the goal should be to spread it out so everyone gets a shot.

[whtouche]

That's been discussed before.
The USFA doesn't (directly) control where the NACs go to. It depends on which cities they get bids from, and which are the most attractive to them.
If noone in the northeast is trying to get a NAC here, at the very least, it'll never hapen(again).

[dberke]

Originally Posted by whtouche

That's been discussed before.
The USFA doesn't (directly) control where the NACs go to. It depends on which cities they get bids from, and which are the most attractive to them.
If noone in the northeast is trying to get a NAC here, at the very least, it'll never hapen(again).

If that's the case, then I must say that the USFA certainly doesn't make it easy for a city to bid. I've requested an NAC bid packet from the USFA 3 or 4 times now and have yet to see or hear anything. Is there someone specific I should be requesting the packets from? I've just been going through the standard info@usfencing email address.

Dan